OK, now I get it.

> It was an honest challenge, he got the ball and didn’t deserve a red. The vast majority of opinion supports this view..even Wenger.

As I understood, he said the red card was harsh, not that it was not deserved.
The rule may be harsh sometimes but I think it’s a good one, without it it’d be worse. It may have been an honest challenge but it’s a risk he took when he made it.

It would have merited a card also outside of the box if Fletcher had been the last defender. Even more so, since it would have been just a FK no PK.

> Point there is that no right of appeal is crazy,

Agree on this one. Moreover, cards should be granted based on video even if the rest stays as it is. Doesn’t matter if Fletcher or Abidal remain on the pitch a minute or two longer, as long as a wrong card is avoided. Obviously.

Point is, the rule is wrong. It was an honest challenge, he got the ball and didn’t deserve a red. The vast majority of opinion supports this view..even Wenger.

I say that the ref made an honest decision as from his view he would not have seen the contact on the ball.

Point there is that no right of appeal is crazy, given that it robs a player of playing in what could be a oonce in a lifetime game.

Same applies to Abidal.

Wenger didn’t say it wasn’t a penalty, he said that he thought it was “very harsh”, referring to the red card decision.

That’s not at all how it is. If he gets the ball then it’s no foul, if he doesn’t it is one. That’s how all refs in all games do it. If you don’t know this, really, there’s no point talking any more, go watch some PL or UCL games and you’ll see this is how they do it.”

No, that’s exactly how it is. The tackle from behind for example – whether you get the ball is totally irrelevant, the foul has been committed. You look at the laws of the game, and you’ll see that a direct free kick is awarded for things like charging at an opponent, tripping an opponent, etc. The whereabouts of the ball is irrelevant. And you might recall a penalty at Old Trafford a few years ago where Barthez tripped an opponent in the box, even though the ball was actually flying above the centre circle at the time.

It’s pundits and commentators who justify their views with things like whether “there was contact” or whether “he got a bit of the ball”. Referees look at whether a foul was committed.

On the Fletcher incident, well, you’re on your own if you truly believe that Fletcher didn’t touch the ball or that Fabregas had any control over the ball. It’s all over the net, you can look at it a hundred times and it never changes. He’s a good player, Fabregas, but he’s not an acrobat.

> The presence of video won’t resolve this kind of situation – it may help, but it won’t resolve it – because it will still come down to opinion, and if we can differ despite seeing video evidence, then so can referees.

Opinions can also be plain wrong, you know. We can only hope refs are less wrong than we are.

Unfortunately, it’s true that the laws are too vague and subject to interpretation in many cases. (Not in this one though. In this instance IMO any good ref with a good angle of view, or video evidence, would have done the same thing as Rosetti.) It might be a good start to clarify them, even if this would mean substantial additions.

You’re wrong. I just saw it again and it’s as I said, Fletcher barely touched the ball and moved it a little bit in the same direction Fabregas was running. Obviously he retained control. Then he was brought down. Clear foul.

> Anyway, I made the point a few weeks ago that if a player commits a foul, then whether he gets the ball first in committing that foul is irrelevant.

That’s not at all how it is. If he gets the ball then it’s no foul, if he doesn’t it is one. That’s how all refs in all games do it. If you don’t know this, really, there’s no point talking any more, go watch some PL or UCL games and you’ll see this is how they do it.

BD and bobmagee, I don’t know, you must be looking at the wrong incident. It *was* miles inside the box, there was nobody between Fabregas and the keeper as they were maybe 3 yards apart, and it was a clear foul. Roestti got it exactly right, I don’t know about his angle of view.

> even Arsene Wenger says it wasn’t a pen

Do you have a reference to this ? I really can’t believe it.