Webb and Ovrebo add more fuel to the ref fire
Give me one minute to get into my happy place!
Graham Poll was quick to speak about Howard Webb’s decision to award a penalty to Manchester United when the club was 2-0 down against Tottenham Hotspur.
Of course Manchester United were fortunate to be awarded a penalty by Howard Webb – even at full speed it appeared clear that Heurelho Gomes played the ball away from Michael Carrick’s feet. The ball moved away virtually at right angles, telling any referee – and particularly one of Webb’s ability and experience – that the ball had been played by the keeper.
Actually, replays show that Michael Carrick touched the ball to change the direction, with the intention of rounding the goalkeeper. Then Gomes got a touch to the ball. Webb, in his explanation, said he saw Carrick get a touch to the ball and saw the goalkeeper clatter in to our player and thought it was a penalty. It wasn’t but it certainly wasn’t the worst decision in the World. The argument that the ball changed direction is ridiculous because the ball first changed direction because of Carrick.
Outside the penalty area, if a player wins the ball but then collides with his whole body in to his opponent, it is a freekick. No questions asked. In the penalty area, if a goalkeeper wins the ball but then collides with his whole body in to his opponent, it shouldn’t be a penalty. Ok, fine.
However, it seems the rules change again. If a United player is tackled then taken out, it shouldn’t be a penalty. If a United player is doing the tackling, then it should be a penalty, as Poll seems to argue when looking at Darren Fletcher’s sending off on Tuesday.
Italian referee Roberto Rosetti had a fine match and can justify in law the penalty he gave after Darren Fletcher brought down Cesc Fabregas. When commentators and former players say: ‘He got the ball, it can’t be a foul,’ they are wrong. Even though Fletcher got a slight touch on the ball, Rosetti felt it was impossible for the Manchester United midfielder to avoid taking his opponent in the follow.
If this isn’t the most blatant case of one rule for one team and another rule for everyone else, then I don’t know what is! Gomes took out his opponent in the follow but Poll argued that it shouldn’t been a penalty regardless!
In hindsight, Fletcher will be wondering what the hell he was thinking about going for that ball. The game was over and it didn’t matter if Cesc Fabregas buried it in the net. But Fletcher being Fletcher played with 100%, committing himself entirely to the cause. In doing that, he got the ball away from Fabregas before bringing him down, just as Gomes did to Carrick. Webb’s decision was hailed as the one that “gave” United the title, whilst Graham Poll reckons Rosetti got it right!
I personally find it absolutely scandalous that Fletcher was sent off, but I’m not bothered about the penalty as it meant nothing. The infuriating part is that the referee will not be held accountable. What a ludicrous system it is to have no appeals for reds cards, apart from in the case of mistaken identity! That basically means referees have free reigns on their decisions and behaviour during the game, with the consequences incomprehensible.
For Darren Fletcher, Rome might be his last chance to ever play in a European Cup final, and the dedication he has shown during our European campaign meant he was certain to start. He has been denied what could prove to be the biggest game of his career and certainly a medal because of inept refereeing and thanks to the no appeals rule, Rosetti will not be held accountable.
For Chelsea, they have been denied their chance to put to bed the devils of last season thanks to the horrendous refereeing in their semi-final against Barcelona. Abidal will also miss the final because Anelka tripped over his own feet and the referee got it wrong.
How infuriating that one man can make such dreadful decisions and our players and clubs suffer as a consequence. However, the contrast between Fletcher’s behaviour after his sending off and Drogba’s behaviour at the final whistle should be noted. Fletcher walked off the field a broken man, sheepishly looking in the referee’s direction, whilst Drogba charged on to it effin and blindin. Respect the referee? Yeah right.
But then, why should we respect referees who make ridiculous decisions? We’ve had two massive games on Tuesday and Wednesday and the referees have cost players and teams the biggest nights in their careers. And given Poll’s inability to judge a decision, it looks as though an English referee wouldn’t have done a better job.
When oh when will we use video refereeing?
One of the easiest things to do when discussing football is criticize referees. I think it’s impossible to compare the two challenges you did (or any two challenges for that matter) and try to draw any sort of conclusion about what the decision should have been. What we should be striving for is a system in which if 100 referees saw the exact same challenge from the exact same position, they’d make the same call every time. Other than that, there is very little that can and should be done.
I have no problem with the idea of reviewing some calls, but referees are very much held accountable. In fact, while most players can make many mistakes in their careers (with the exception of keepers) and still retain their jobs, it only takes a few bad decisions by a referee before his career is effectively ended. For example, I would be surprised if we saw Ovrebo officiate in any major game again.
Chelsea v Barca…In all my years of watching The Beautiful Game I have never seen in one game FOUR blatant penalties being dismissed. To write this off as bad refereeing and expect us all to move on just doesnt wash. No appeal system, huh? These decisions deny individuals their legacies. Many of the current Chelsea players will retrire with no final appearance or no winners medal. WHAT IFs dont count in our epitaphs.
Please give us video replay. Three dudes in the stands will give us more confidence and better outcomes that a poor guy on the park being bellowed at by 60,000 fans and ranting players and coaches.
Did I mention its the 21st century and we are in the electronic age?
John The Scot
Actually, if you look at the video replay of where Rosetti was standing when Fletcher made the tackle, then it’s quite hard to tell if he got the ball or not and, again from that angle, if the ref thinks he hasn’t then it’s understandable why he shows the red card. Not correct, but understandable – in that situation he needs the linesman to help him out.
For me, it was a penalty (just) but as the ball was heading away from Fabregas, it wasn’t a clear goalscoring opportunity, so the most Fletcher should have received was a booking.
I’d also tend to ignore whatever Graham Poll says, to be honest.
Um, what about how Abidal, not just Fletcher, accepted the erroneous red card in contrast to Chelsea’s divas. You make it sound like Chelsea deserved the game. No team that plays such negative tactics deserves to win, though they often do when referees don’t calls fouls or give cards, such as in game one at Nou Camp in which Ballack should have been sent off and any number of cards attributed the blues. Looking at the big picture Chelsea’s got no complaints. The game was theirs to lose, and they lost.
Hera’s what I concluded after multiple viewings of the Fletcher incident (thank you, DVR). In chronological order: (1) DFs right arm pulls fairly hard on FFs left shoulder, (2) DFs right thigh collided with FFs left thigh throwing him off balance an probably (eventually) to the ground, DFs right toe flicks the ball away. Really seemed like a clear case of going through the man to get to the ball. Sending off? Without that intervention doesn’t FF get a touch on the ball with only EvDS to beat? Tough to conclude no, so it must be red.
Agree with Scott. I think this week we may have reached a watershed regarding refs and video technology. Something has to be done.
@Malvolio: “No team that plays such negative tactics deserves to win”
Man am I so tired of this crap! Chelsea dominated the game on Wednesday….yes even with only 30% possession they dominated. All the incisive attacks and best chances were Chelseas while Barca were toothless going forward, poor defensively and only have 1 game plan.
You need to learn a bit about the game my friend. Chelsea were comfortably the better side over the 2 legs and a major injustice was done.
I believe we will look back on this game as the straw that broke the camel’s back and finally got UEFA/FIFA to move into the new millenium. Let’s hope so anyway!
Oh, OK. Now I see what you meant about the video ref argument.
I second this with all my heart. 
About the Fletcher incident, I think it was a penalty because, even if he may have touched the ball, Fabregas retained control. It was still his ball, therefore Fletcher may not bring him down. Had he taken the ball away from Fabregas, it would have been a different story. The same is true in and out of the box. I don’t know about the Gomez- Carrick incident.
I personally found Rosetti very good in this game, though it must be said it was a very easy one since ManU put it to rest very early on. But the video ref argument still is very pertinent because of the other CL semi.
It was a penalty – because the ref gave it.
Argument over.
Can we have some unbiased and objective reporting here please? The author of this article is CLEARLY a united supporter. Journalism should not be one-eyed like this is. In my opinion, Gomes touched the ball away from Carrick and clearly won the ball, no penalty. Fletcher was unfairly penalized. End of story. It has nothing to do with whether it’s United or another team. If anything MOST refereeing decisions go United’s way. Don’t play the victim here.
I’ll also say that refs should have alot harsher punishment for getting decisions wrong. Their decisions can cost teams millions and can end manager’s careers. They are protected far too much by the governing bodies and should be held responsible for their actions.
If you think your refereeing laws have some adendums that favor (of disfavor in this case) a club, try seeing a full season in Portugal, where it is even more blatant…
Truth is the rise of FCPorto is due to more to them having 3 extra players (one wandering in middle of the pitch with a whistle, the other two at the sidelines, holding flags). If had seen this season the rule was: if a player touches a Porto player is immediate foul and at least yellow card, if a Porto player touches a player from the opposing team, then it is only a foul if death results from the tackle…
FF, I don’t understand that at all. Fletcher’s touch of the ball was significant enough for the ball to move a few yards away from Fabrigas’s control. So it couldn’t have been Fabrigas’s ball.
Anyway, I made the point a few weeks ago that if a player commits a foul, then whether he gets the ball first in committing that foul is irrelevant – so it just seems to me to be a matter of degree – and therefore opinion. My opinion is that Gomez fouled Carrick, Fletcher didn’t foul Fabregas, and Drogba was taken out in the area on Wednesday (the fact that he’s an odious man doesn’t take away from the fact he was unfairly treated). That’s my opinion, others will have different opinions. The presence of video won’t resolve this kind of situation – it may help, but it won’t resolve it – because it will still come down to opinion, and if we can differ despite seeing video evidence, then so can referees.
Another thing we should bear in mind is that the referee is actually regarded in the laws of the game as an active member of play – therefore, in the same way that players make mistakes and teams have to deal with it, so will referees. That’s football I’m afraid. One way of reducing the incidence of this is not to play in such a way that the referee and his team are always brought into play – if no-one fouls, the referee isn’t involved. So if you’re playing a game based on tight offsides for example, and the linesman calls one wrong, whose fault is that – the linesman for making an error, or the team that brings the linesman into play by forcing him to make a tight decision, the equivalent of a pass that causes a 50-50?
I think that if the Fletcher tackle was outside the box and the referee saw that it was a genuine attempt to play the ball and that he got contact on the ball then most refs would award a free kick but not produce a card.
It certainly wasn’t dirty or cynical. However, when inside the box the free-kick becomes a penalty and a red card is mandated if you are the last man back. That’s the problem! Referees should be allowed to use their discretion, especially when so much is at stake and a sending-off was the wrong call here.
The other problem was that the refs angle of view was all wrong. I think he made an honest decision but got it wrong and that is why no right of appeal is nonsense.
To be honest, all these people who think Derren Fletcher deserved to get sent off don’t really know what you are talking about, ask any player (apart from Fabregras) if it was a foul and most of them will say “of course not” and how you can say that the ball was within Fabregrases control is beyond be, Fletcher clearly got his foot on the ball, it diverted ninety degrees AWAY from Fabregras and THEN Fletcher made contact with Fabregras, therefore clearly NOT a pen and a brilliant challenge, like everybody who actually knows the game sees, did you even hear the commentators or even the studio guests? Even Arsene Wenger says it wasn’t a pen so if the opposition manager can say that then why can’t people just accept it?
well said bobmagee… its preety obvious fletcher shudnt have been sent off… i mean utd alrdy had de game wrapped up… flectcher didnt need to make a rash stupid challenge… so yea… no argument there… bt chelsea.. yea i guess it was partly de refs fault… wat i think tho is dat these chelsea bastards need to learn to take responsibility as well… i mean come on… chelsea had so many chances but never buried any… they even had the advantage of an extra man… so yea… when it comes down 2 it… yea a couple of bad calls against chelsea… but also a couple of calls favoring them… conclusion= stop blaming de ref cos u cant put de ball in de back de net… learn sum respect u chelsea brats…
Gervillian Swike:
> FF, I don’t understand that at all. Fletcher’s touch of the ball was significant enough for the ball to move a few yards away from Fabrigas’s control. So it couldn’t have been Fabrigas’s ball.
You’re wrong. I just saw it again and it’s as I said, Fletcher barely touched the ball and moved it a little bit in the same direction Fabregas was running. Obviously he retained control. Then he was brought down. Clear foul.
> Anyway, I made the point a few weeks ago that if a player commits a foul, then whether he gets the ball first in committing that foul is irrelevant.
That’s not at all how it is. If he gets the ball then it’s no foul, if he doesn’t it is one. That’s how all refs in all games do it. If you don’t know this, really, there’s no point talking any more, go watch some PL or UCL games and you’ll see this is how they do it.
BD and bobmagee, I don’t know, you must be looking at the wrong incident. It *was* miles inside the box, there was nobody between Fabregas and the keeper as they were maybe 3 yards apart, and it was a clear foul. Roestti got it exactly right, I don’t know about his angle of view.
> even Arsene Wenger says it wasn’t a pen
Do you have a reference to this ? I really can’t believe it.
Gervillian Swike:
> The presence of video won’t resolve this kind of situation – it may help, but it won’t resolve it – because it will still come down to opinion, and if we can differ despite seeing video evidence, then so can referees.
Opinions can also be plain wrong, you know. We can only hope refs are less wrong than we are.
Unfortunately, it’s true that the laws are too vague and subject to interpretation in many cases. (Not in this one though. In this instance IMO any good ref with a good angle of view, or video evidence, would have done the same thing as Rosetti.) It might be a good start to clarify them, even if this would mean substantial additions.
FF:
“Anyway, I made the point a few weeks ago that if a player commits a foul, then whether he gets the ball first in committing that foul is irrelevant.
That’s not at all how it is. If he gets the ball then it’s no foul, if he doesn’t it is one. That’s how all refs in all games do it. If you don’t know this, really, there’s no point talking any more, go watch some PL or UCL games and you’ll see this is how they do it.”
No, that’s exactly how it is. The tackle from behind for example – whether you get the ball is totally irrelevant, the foul has been committed. You look at the laws of the game, and you’ll see that a direct free kick is awarded for things like charging at an opponent, tripping an opponent, etc. The whereabouts of the ball is irrelevant. And you might recall a penalty at Old Trafford a few years ago where Barthez tripped an opponent in the box, even though the ball was actually flying above the centre circle at the time.
It’s pundits and commentators who justify their views with things like whether “there was contact” or whether “he got a bit of the ball”. Referees look at whether a foul was committed.
On the Fletcher incident, well, you’re on your own if you truly believe that Fletcher didn’t touch the ball or that Fabregas had any control over the ball. It’s all over the net, you can look at it a hundred times and it never changes. He’s a good player, Fabregas, but he’s not an acrobat.
FF: I think you misread my post. I said that IF the incident was outside the box I think a foul would have been given but no card.
Wenger didn’t say it wasn’t a penalty, he said that he thought it was “very harsh”, referring to the red card decision.
Yes but what’s your point, if it was well inside the box ? No offense but I fail to see how you arrived to the conclusion that “a sending-off was the wrong call here”, and “he made an honest decision but got it wrong”.
@FF: My point is that if it had been outside the box it wouldn’t have merited a card but a foul, yes.
Inside the box it’s also a foul but the rules mandate a red card if you are the last defender.
Point is, the rule is wrong. It was an honest challenge, he got the ball and didn’t deserve a red. The vast majority of opinion supports this view..even Wenger.
I say that the ref made an honest decision as from his view he would not have seen the contact on the ball.
Point there is that no right of appeal is crazy, given that it robs a player of playing in what could be a oonce in a lifetime game.
Same applies to Abidal.
> Point is, the rule is wrong.
OK, now I get it.
> It was an honest challenge, he got the ball and didn’t deserve a red. The vast majority of opinion supports this view..even Wenger.
As I understood, he said the red card was harsh, not that it was not deserved.
The rule may be harsh sometimes but I think it’s a good one, without it it’d be worse. It may have been an honest challenge but it’s a risk he took when he made it.
It would have merited a card also outside of the box if Fletcher had been the last defender. Even more so, since it would have been just a FK no PK.
> Point there is that no right of appeal is crazy,
Agree on this one. Moreover, cards should be granted based on video even if the rest stays as it is. Doesn’t matter if Fletcher or Abidal remain on the pitch a minute or two longer, as long as a wrong card is avoided. Obviously.
Hmmm, advice and opinions from a man (Poll) who once gave a player 3 yellow cards before sending him off. Thanks Graham!!