The Tottenham dream and Arsenal’s reality
In the last 18 months or so, people have looked at the improving Tottenham squad and have been quick to brand them as the 5th biggest team in the Premiership.
On the other hand, Arsenal’s decline after 2 titles in 3 seasons (although they won an FA Cup in 2005 and reached the CL final in 2006) and especially after the 2004-2005 season has led many people to write them off from next year’s title challenge.
So far, so good. Tottenham’s attacking foursome of Berbatov, Keane, Defoe and Darren Bent is one of the most impressive in the Premiership and in King, Dawson, Robinson, Chimbonda and Bale Tottenham have the nucleus of a quality defense. If anything’s missing, it’s a quality left-winger and a top-quality midfielder with experience.
Arsenal? Vieira and Henry’s departure have had an impact on the club’s fortunes but the holes have popped up at the wings, with no one there to adequately replace Pires and Ljunberg. Like the Spurs, Arsenal have to improve their squad to match their club’s ambitions.
After this point though, things get messy.
Tottenham fans (and many anti-Arsenal fans) believe that based on the last two seasons and the improvements Tottenham have made, they stand a good chance of overtaking Arsenal next season and qualifying for the Champions League. From the Spurs’ point of view, that’s a fair call.
However, based on the evidence of the last two seasons, you’d think that 2005/2006 was a blip for Arsenal and a great season for Tottenham, while 2006/2007 saw an improve Arsenal (in the league) and a Tottenham that started slow and had to put in something special to finish 5th.
If 2005/2006 went to Tottenham in spirit (points-wise they were still behind, and at the end of the day points are the only thing that matter), 2006/2007 definitely went the Gunners‘ way.
Predictions for next season?
Based on the past two seasons, seeing the current squads AND keeping in mind that both clubs will buy more players before August ends, I’d say that:
Tottenham are most likely to come 5th and Arsenal have an equal chance of being 3rd or 4th (a bit more towards 4th).
Let me know what you guys think.
- Newcastle beat sorry Tottenham but cannot make old mistakes again
- Middlesbrough’s Downing Wants Nothing To Do With Tottenham
- Arsenal’s moment of truth: Evolve or suffer
- 3 reasons why Ribery is NOT going to Tottenham
- Is Ribery now out of Arsenal’s and Manchester United’s reach?
I think that you are correct with your analysis. It will take either Arsenal to have a mediocre to bad season or for the Spurs team to really gel together well for Spurs to finish 4th and Arsenal 5th. Injuries to key players will be significant and also the form of team like Newcastle, Everton and Blackburn.
I expect ‘The Arsenal’ to finish first of course. Mind you I expect that every year because thats what support is all about. I expect a lot of boasts and bluster from Spuds but in their eyes finishing above AFC is more important than winning anything. Gunners on the other hand want trophies first and the routine humiliation of The Totterers second.
I think the problem with Tottenham’s season last year was our shockingly lethargic start to the season, a mistake I dont think Jol will let happen again. This season we have the emmergence of talent that was blooded in the premiership (huddlestone, Zokora (incredibly improvedtowards the end of alst year) and Berbatov. Add to this the stability of a natural left footed defender in Bale and you have the nucleus of a side that should challenge for the champs league.
Arsenal however I feel are on the decline, and while I dont by any means suggest that they will finish 6 or below I believe this season will be much more of a battle- if only because the teams around them (liverpool and utd especially) have raised thebar with some quality signings.
Arsenal will have to look to replace Henry and Freddy with some experienced players and whilst im sure Wenger’s new boy up front has talent, he may take a season or two to bed in- as did Henry. This would mean depending on Adebayor, RVP and Bendtner. All three are capable players, however they havent had to carry a team on their own, Wenger will need to get more out of the disappointing Hleb and Rosicky if they are to have any chance of challenging this season, and not finish in the runners up uefa cup spot.
The other side to this arguement is that Newcastle under Fat Sam are emerging as pre season contenders for the european places. With a fully fit strike force, a motiviated and capable (although boring) manager driving them forward I can see them challenging at the top of the table.
West Ham are paying double for everyone that anyone is interested and by sheer wieght of numbers in their squad could be on their way to a uefa cup spot but I feel champs league is out of their reach.
This seaeson is excting for me- both as a spurs fan and as a football fan- with Sunderland and Birmingham spending big (thanks for teh 9 mill btw) there doesnt look to be many weak links in the premiership and every point will be fought tooth and nail for. I expect this season to be a lot closer than last and again- it will go down to the wire.
In 2005/2006 Spurs were not playing in Europe and were out of the domestic cups at the first round managing to play 40 matches and end up with 65 points.
Arsenal played about 60 matches in all, ending up in a European cup final and 67 points in the premiership.
In the 2006/2007 seasons Spurs played over 50% more games again upon the previous seasons.. finishing with 65 games played. Ending 5th again in the Premiership on 60 points, losing one game more than the previous season and drawing 2 games less.
Arsenal played less than their previous season, and less than Spurs and even won less games in the Premiership than the previous season. And ended up with just one more point.
I should say that this would show that Spurs improved in the 2006/2007 season and Arsenal fell behind.. following this trend Spurs will finish above Arsenal in this upcoming season.
i see what your saying and me being a spurs fan i have to be realistic, from the evidence that i saw salt season arsenal were very good but just couldnt score and they could have finished 3rd, having said that spurs started very poorly not sure what the problem was maybe too many new faces, but when we got started we played quite well and could have or should have won at least 1 of the cup competitions but we were extremely unlucky in all of those, i beleive tacticall errors in the fa and league cups cost us btu in the uefa cup it was purre bad luck from the first leg to the 2nd, the reason why i am mentioning all this is beacause martin jol has learnt from his errors (so i hope) secondly against seville we more than matched them at their ground ant after a bad start being 2 nil down we should have spanked them all part of the learning curve, now lets get to the point, spurs will be much stronger this season now whether we finish above arsenal or not is not what im getting at here i beleive we will finish in a champions league spot regardlesswe are propbably the most improved team and we are showing ambition, yes wenger has his team playin good football (i mean hes been there 9 years now) so thats expected but we let ourselves down last season through silly little mistakes and tactical errors, if those are sorted then you will all be in for a big surprise.
I agree wholeheartedly and I am a Spurs supporter. We played Arsenal 4 times last season and speaking objectively, even though Henry was missing in all 4 games we never really looked like beating them. Our fundamental problem is our defence, it’s just not strong enough. We will always concede goals and that amounts to not winning trophies. Hopefuly Kaboul will do something about that.
its typical for one to suggest that arsenal need to replace a star with a star. however, arsenal is not typical team. losing henry will not been seen as a lost but as an oppurtunity for the rest of the squad to improve as a whole. losing viera is a perfect example. cesc fabregas might not be the player he is today if viera is still around.
so, for someone to suggest that arsenal is a team in decline is one typical thinking that you would suspect from a spurs fan.
i honestly believe that Arsenal is the team to watch this coming season and maybe with one final piece of the jigsaw, which is a natural winger, which nor necessarily an established one, Arsenal is ready to fight for 2nd or 3rd place.
You’ll probably get slated by Arsenal and Spurs fans for being biased, but that’s just the sign of a balanced article. As a Spurs fan, I have to say I agree with your analysis.
In football things never stay the same forever. Spurs have improved as a team year on year for the last 3 years and I believe are now poised move up another level. Two seasons ago we lost out on a top four place in a bizarre set of circumstances on the last day of the season. Last season we lost one of our best players just before the start of the season and was not well prepared and so got off to a slow start, We also had the new (for us) experiance of Euro football which for most (non top four) teams means slipping back down the premiership. But for the rest of the season we got better & better as a team and our form for the end of the season was top 3 for the last 3 months.
We have improved in all areas for this season especially those where we needed too most. But even before that we were a much better side than the one that started last season. Now we have a strength in depth that we havent seen at Spurs for many years. So we start this season far stronger than we have ever been in the premiership, to stay in front of us I think you will have to improve on your squad by quite a bit.
As a Spurs fan my heart says yes, we’ll finish above Arsenal. We have a nasty knack for spoiling our progress with setbacks: The lasagne incident, poor start to last season, losing stupid games at home and not getting enough points away. When you look at the firepower at Jols disposal you think we’ve got a good chance against any opposition, Arsenal included.
If Martin can put this right and get a solid start and points on the board early then I truly believe we’ll be very competitive this term
Arsenal on the other hand have had a tougher time of it - key players and David Dien leaving will have an effect. However you look at the quality in their squad, plus the pedigree of their manager who has an uncanny knack of turning shit into gold (not all the time though - Jeffers anyone?) then you have to take them very seriously - there is an advantage to Arsenal - in recent years they’ve not finished lower than 4th and are therefore used to the pressures of the top of the table - For Spurs its pretty much uncharted territory.
If the heart says Spurs for 4th spot then my head says lets indicate our intentions with some decent wins, especially against Arsenal…
COYS
I thinks thats a fair assessment david but if u look at the arsenal squad last season did not buy big but finished a comfortable 4th, buying big does not mean immediate success good example is chelsea last season, pple talk about all the other teams spending a fortune on players and believe they will do well i dont think so let the season stat and then we can talk about which teams might do well. Buying player is about strengthening the team not being the team that spent more. if u watched arsenal last season there was 2 thinngs lackin in the team those are (1) a good finisher (2) a good defender to deal with high balls. How many games did arsenal create and did not score sot he bottom line they had to get someone to do that. With the players ManYoo bought Nani and Anderson wat makes them more special than the youngsters arsenal has?
How can it be Tottenham’s dream and Arsenal’s reality when the season has not even started. Just a few reasons why Arsenal are concerned:
- Loss of Henry
- Doubts whether manager will extend contract
- Loss of Dein
- No Director of Football
- Large debts
- Hostile takeovers from non-football sources
- Publicly appearing not to care that they do not have first team English players, but everyone knows it is embarrassing and causes them to be the most hated supporters
- Too many fair weathered, jumping on the band wagon, prawn sandwiches type of supporters
- They wrote an article about distributing free scarves so that they can improve the atmosphere in the new library
- Only team not to be part of the English top league by merit
- The imaginary player they signed
- Signing a ‘well known striker’ called DooDoo
- Not a true North London club
- Slagging their own players off on all their blogs
- Claiming Spurs fans have delusions of grandeur – because they cannot admit to being worried about their progress even though ManU and Chelsea welcome Spurs to the top tier
- Insecure supporters, who next season will be living in the past
You need a stable atmosphere to acheive. Arsenal have been pretending that everyting is alright for too long. With the uncertainity behind the scenes a slight wobble and Arsenal will colapse like a house of cards. It will not take much for it to be Tottenham’s reality and Arsenal’s nightmare next season. Tottenham are happy whilst progress is being made and therefore 5th spot is not necessarily disastrous. Arsenal losing 5th spot will be devasting to them. Your article headline should therefore be, Tottenham’s dream and Arsenal’s nightmare - which will it be?
The future looks bright, the future is lilywhite.
COYS COYS COYS
I still think that Arsenal will make the top 4 again this season. But then again, i’m an Arsenal fan so anything i say will be taken with a pinch of salt by other people.
I think the lack of quality wingers is more serious than the loss of Henry. Arsenal will look to see more of a team effort from all its players to get the goals, so in effect they need Hleb & Walcott to step up this coming season. Rosicky has to start firing more regularly now & he came up with some brilliant performances last season. If we see more of that it’ll do the team a world of good.
I don’t see Walcott as a Striker just yet, maybe in a couple of years. Main men are Adebayor & Van Persie. I expect Bendtner to be an alternate in times of crises. Walcott & Da Silva will probably play more central roles in the Carling Cup competitions & maybe the FA Cup too. Wenger has acknowledged that he’s going to concentrate more on the Champions League & the Premiership next season.
My biggest worry is the back four. Toure did a magnificent job but he didn’t have much help from Gallas or Senderos. Clichy is great but what if he gets injured again? There’s no cover there. The defence is where the game is lost & it didn’t help that Lehmann kept coming out of his box in his bouts of craziness. Almunia still doesn’t look solid so i don’t know how Wenger is going to develop the goalkeeping department. I expect he’ll use Fabianski the way i think he’ll use Da Silva & Walcott.
Please remember that much of the squad had injuries last season & we did well with what we had despite that. I admit that the new look Tottenham looks daunting on paper to any Arsenal fan, but our boys have been playing together for quite sometime now & that closeness & experience together will come in quite handy in the coming season.
Realistically, I’d say that Arsenal are most likely to come mid-table and Tottenham have an equal chance of being 4th or 5th (a bit more towards 4th)!!!
Spiral Architect - best response I have ever read and as an artchitect you are certainly able to identify cracks. More than I was aware of and I shall add them to my list. Next season is sure to be interesting, but we have nothing to lose.
COYS COYS COYS
Spurs will never overtake Arsenal, we are the better team in North London.
They will not get a Champions League place, and Arsenal will come 3rd this season.
Liverpool 4th
I’m a Arsenal fan and i think spurs will be closer to the top 4 but i don’t think they will break them up and i have a few different reasons why. First of all goals. Arsenal may not have converted the large amount of possession and shots/opportunities into goals last year but towards the end of last season it was coming together more and we actually finished only 1 goal behind chealsea who had their 2 main goal scorers fit for the whole season. It’s only a matter of time before we start converting more chances and i’d be more worried if we weren’t creating any .
The second reason is team spirit. I loved the fact Gilberto (probable our new skipper) hit straight back at Drogba who thinks that we have no chance without henry. Hopfully Gilberto can put that fighting spirit and the feeling of protection for the club like Drogba insulted a member of his family into the rest of the team. The other comment that i notcied was Fabregas saying him and the younger players promised eachother to stick together and start winning titles at Arsenal. That shows me the lack of ego (which maybe henry had the last year or 2) and the feeling that they all are pulling together in the same direction and want to win trophes at arsenal.
The third reason we will be staying in the top 4 is having some real world class talent. Van Persies going to be quality this season and the fact he was joint top scorer with Drogba before his injury could make him a good bet for player of the year or young player award at least. Fabregas is already one of the best in his position in the world and if he starts getting as many goals as assists he will be untouchable.Gilberto and Toure are the battlers and highly consistant players in the team as well as being good leaders. Lehman can be a little unpredictable but is stll one of the best keepers in the league and we have a pair of fullbacks in eboue and clichy who have improved their overall game fast and could be among the best in their positions. Rosicky is a quality player and if he avoids injuries this season he will provide and score more goals for Arsenal. Diaby looks to be becoming the next Vieira for Arsenal and is the tough tackling and forceful player arsenal have been looking for in midfield and Denilson, with no fear in getting stuck in and a good eye for a pass, looks to be the love child of Gilberto and Fabregas. Theo Walcott will learn from last season and he will be fitter and stronger for it. Even when he was injuried he played on for months, which shows great character, and even helped the England under 21’s qualify for the european championships and scored against the best defence of last season in the carling cup final during that period as well.Adebayor brings something different to our foward line and i think he will score more next season.
The fourth reason is knowing eachother. This team started to be rebuilt after the unbeatable season are o believe they have reached an understanding between eachother of how to play together and what each other will do and where they will be pitch which you cant just buy which Liverpool and Spurs are maybe are trying to do. Although it’s exciting for fans to see their team buying loads of players but you can’t just throw all of them into the team and expect them to play superb football. Also not all of your best players can play together, which England fans will tell you, and i think thats where Liverpool will have a problem next season because Rafa seems to think the rotation system works but he has’nt come close to the league yet and i can see more players getting upset of not getting a regular run in the team and therefore not playing well because they have’nt played together enough to have a understanding on the pitch.
The fifth and final reason is we have Arsene Wenger. People doubted Ferguson a few years and said he was past it but you can’t buy experience and he had been there done it and bought the t-shirt and so has Wenger. Wenger knows what it takes to win titles (which only 2 other current managers know how to do in england) and i for one still have all the faith in world he will sign and bring titles back to Arsenal.
I’m going to sit on the fence a little bit and say we may not win the league this season but i think we will make more of a challenge for it and might even finish 2nd or third.
I don’t think Martin Jol can afford such a bad start again, the problem with spending big (and some big gambles)is that the level of expectation is lifted, Football fans want instant results. We know spurs fans are looking at that champions league spot as if its already theirs, well i for one would not be suprised if 3 months into the season the plan of champions league football thats stuck up in Jol’s office may just start peeling off. Whilst i think he is a good manager with a decent plan, he will not get the patience he needs from spurs fans after all he still has to nit together a team with a style of play that they beleive in. Last season they lost confidence and direction all to often in the late stages of games, and it wasnt as if we didnt hear the call for his head from certain sections last term.
Arsene Wenger onthe other hand has the confidince of the arsenal fans and the team, we all know how they play, how effective it can be and also the problems they had last year.Put short: taking chances against against weaker opposition was the difference between Arsenal and the teams that finnished above them last season, Whilst no-one knows whether this problem has in any way been addressed with the addition of eduardo (50+ goals in a weaker league) and a fit again Robin van Persie. The Question that the Arsenal team face is a lot clearer than that of Spurs,add in the factor that very little is expected of Arsenal after all they’ve just sold their captain and top goal scorer. But lets be honest its the fact we’ve seen it all before havn’t we, false dawns at spurs and over achievement at Arsenal but perhaps thats just how it will be untill we see any different.
Come on you Gunners!!!
As a Spurs fan I must admit to getting a bit carried away whenever a new season draws near but something this year feels a bit different. You can almost sense a change in fortunes for the two clubs. Whether or not that will materialise in a change of league position waits to be seen.
It reamins clear, however, if Spurs can shore up the defense a bit they have the fire power to win any game. And if Arsenal can bolster their squad they will pull through as they are used to winning.
I think a defining game in both team’s seasons could be Spurs v Arsenal September 15th. Spurs could make a big statement by winning that one.
Also, I must say its kind of refreshing to read a discussion about Spurs and Arsenal that isn’t just a long list of insults…keep it going lads.
COYS
There is no way spurs will finish above arsenal.spurs just dont have it.no matter who they buy.
I can’t see the top 4 changing anytime soon. It’s all about the midfield and those teams all have a formidable line up in this area. No matter that Spurs have an excellant attack and potentially a strong defence, fitness permitting, unless they strengthen the midfield area I can’t see them stepping up a notch. Fabrigas and Gilberto are a strong pairing, though you can see Arsenal being bullied out of games, especially without their talisman. This is a possible route for Spurs.
I can’t see Newcastle or West Ham doing anything to be honest. Newcastle’s defence is shocking, and they still have too many players there for the money. As do West Ham, they’ve strengthened but seem to be only interested in payingf exhorbitant wages for average performers, and you can’t see there being much team harmony with Bellamy as a key performer…
What a suprise…Gooners posting a 1 sentence response..with nothing constructive on it…
Though spurs have improved their squad I think so many of the other prem teams have done the same.
Im a Spurs fan but I think 5th next season will still be a good result.
Arsenal werent at their best last season but they still made 3rd with all their injuries and Henrys enevitable departure.
Spurs may have addressed a few issues with some signings but I still see us getting injuries to the defence which (like last season) will see us concede too many goals to challenge the top 4.
With all the talk of a big money take over at the Emirates I dont think we have heard the last from that end of North London. Theres still plenty of time for the Wenger Boys to get a few good signings in once Dien comes back.
The proof is in the pudding lads. Im praying every night that Spurs will make that top 4 but I think theres too much hype, which may come back to bite us.
Speaking of biting, we will also have our new 8 million defender starting next season looking for a new set of pearly whites!!(Ouch)
COYS!!
I disagree with you, Ahmed, that 2006/07 went to Arsenal. I think it went, to Spurs, actually.
Arsenal played about the same number of games in 2005/06 and 2006/07, and they finished 4th in both seasons. Spurs, on the other hand, played half as many games more in 2006/07, than in 2005/06. Now, that’s a team that’s going somewhere.
H
mmm..ahmed ‘mido’ bilal..you have lit the blue torch paper on this one.why are trying to incite spurs and gooner fans?for all the quality that both squads have,i think it is too close to call.the simple truth is ,being a spurs fan ,i want them to finally get the CL place we have been craving.Spurs seem tho have thrown the gauntlet down with big signings so far,arsenal more low key but we cannot discount the ‘wenger’ effect.he has pulled more rabbits out the hat than most magicians,and who will bet against him doing it again.Spurs only have themselves to blame for missing out on 4th for the last 2 seasons,nothing to do with arsenal.the simple truth is ,if we had a better defence last 2 seasons we would have got 4th both times.we let in 50+ goals last year….does not take a genius( MJ take note ) to realise what our problems are.hopefully we should address these this season and finally make the push for 4th by beating rest and challenging the best and by the best I mean Utd,L’pool,Chelsea and Arsenal.
Being a Spurs fan is a bit like being an England fan ie start of every competition we think we have the chance of winning & by the time its all over we think oh didnt we do well to finish 5th get to the qtr final etc…
Thats all about to change! with th exception of chelski last seasons top 5 are all in a period of transition in the cases of UTD, Liverpool & ARSE they have opted to go for European players who have no premiership pedigree which can work Henry, Berba et al but equally can fail Rebrov, Veron etc Spurs on the other hand seem to be going for proven premiership talent as their main signing(s) this season which means they need less time to adapt.
The main obstacle i can see to Spurs failing to gatecrash the Champs League party this season is consistency & BMJs tactical naivety at times. if we can get some players to perform on a regular basis ie JENAS LENNON & ROBBO for a whole season & cut out the defensive mistakes then i see no reason why 4th has to be the target.
there is no shame in aiming high & failing but there is shame in failing to aim high!
I dont understand the likes of KyleAusGooner and Taehr. Why bother to leave a message at all? Your points say nothing about the team you support and have no justification on how you hold such an opinion.
I also think that Arsenal will finish above Spurs again and I am a Spurs fan!
You guys played poorly and finished 4th last year. With your younger players and last seasons additions now EPL blooded, I feel you will be a stronger team. I expect a lot from that little Czech player, he is class!
Henry gone! so what, he hardly played last year and I think (and maybe i’m out of line for saying this) he claused trouble in the dressing room. He gave me the opinion he thought he was bigger then your club.
Spurs have moved forward as a starting 11 but also as a squad. We have a developing side and a good structure behind the team. We should look to simply gain more points year after year and judge our season against ourselves not against others. I am excited for the season and hope Spurs gain CL entry.
If Spurs acheive 4th or even push Arsenal for it. It will be for the good of the english game, the premier league and London football. The title has to be MU’s some great purchases this year!
Come on guys if you have a comment back it up with you thought process.
KyleAusGooner - What exactly is the basis of your arguement. Arsenal are not the better team simply because you think so.
Sir Alex and Mourinhno have both welcomed Spurs to the top tier and consider them serious challengers.
Spurs are improving all the time. Arsenal are nowhere near title contenders. Spurs had a poor start to last season and this was the only difference between us by the end of the season. If Spurs continue their end of season form they will beat Arsenal to the Top 4 spot. However, Spurs have strengthened their squad better than most so far.
I assume from your name that you are from Oz, why have you chosen to support Arsenal?
KyleAusGooner???
Liverpool 4th lol arent u remmembering we got over 80 points when r players were fit even though we had cisse and baros up front lol
Now we have got an adapted kuyt hopefully crouch dosent go turkey sub at the easy opens and now with voronin and torres and weve improved on the wings do u seriously think we are going to finish below arsenal???
U make me laugh
oh yeah sorry to start fights on the subject we have to remmember about improving teams like newcastle, west ham and man city I think next season will be great
and i think Arsenal will stay fourth but they will have to fight for it
Whilst my allegiance to Arsenal obviously caused/effects my view, I have to say I find this a nothing debate.
So, Arsenal are in decline. Why is that?
We have lost Freddie and Henry, true. But I ask what meaningful contribution did Freddie give last season? I can think of the one goal in the FA Cup. So we’ve lost an ageing player whose is losing the pace that makes him who he is and also a player who has never performed to the same standard as when we had Bergkamp playing, and also a player who would have, at best, been 3rd choice on the right (i say at least given speculation to eboue being pushed up.
I admit Henry is more of a loss, but still he is not getting any younger and the kind of injury he had last season points to wear and tear from a long football career, which is worrying. Also, is everybody forgetting henry was out for a large portion of the season, and not playing at his best for the rest? In response to DAVID, ade and RVP both had to carry the team in his absence, so that point is rubbished. If anything, you could argue henry held back certain players- RVP especially, and that now the whole team will play with a greater freedom.
I don’t see how a young team who are improving all the team can point to a decline. This team, who are undoubtedly going to be better this year than in previous years, were able to fend off the ‘challenge’ from the Spuds last year with ease, despite all the injuries.
Also, whilst Bent is a very (overpriced) good player- what is it he’s going to give that they don’t already have? Surely the smart option would have been to strengthen an area that isn’t already so well covered?
Spurs are dreaming if they think they will break into the top 4.Only thing they doing is cementing the number 5 position
Just to add, whilst I do think arsenal will finish at least 4th, I disagree with other Gunners who just brush off the argument and assume that no team can replace us because we’re arsenal. We have to earn that 4th spot, it is no right that we have because we are a ‘big’ club- it is very much worth debating the subject.
Oh and Liverpoolfan- why can’t arsenal finish above you. If we add consistency to our game we can challenge Man U. We showed last year that, on our day, we are the best team in the league bar none with our record against the top four. Granted we did not deserve to win due to our record against lower teams, but we showed our class is beyond doubt
Arsenal may surprise a few people this coming season. Their youngsters will be a year older with that much more experience - and I’m not sure they are going to miss Henry much - so it looks like the top 4 from last year will remain the top 4 this coming season. Tottenham to likely finish 5th again - and it’s a toss up between a number of clubs for 6th place.
The way I see it, we needed 3 more goals last year. We finished 8 points behind, so if we had a)scored one goal at Watford, b) scored one more goal at Blackburn, and c) scored one goal versus Fulham at home, we would have had 3 more victories, 9 more points, and a place in the CL. So we’re very close. If we play like we did during the second half of the season and if we beat the teams we should beat, I think the race with Arsenal and Liverpool will be very very close. COYS!!
Personally I think that spurs contending for 4th and arsenal protecting their position makes the premiership refreshing once again.
Who likes predictability?
I’m an optimistic, realistic Spurs fan.
Spurs have built a decent squad over the last few years. I think that Levy’s transfer policy, 5 years down the line from inception, has started to kick in. Recycling experienced squad players at break-even or a gain (Pamarot, Sean Davis, Pedro Mendes, Danny Murphy, Teemu Tainio, Mido, Malbranque, Davids, Carrick) while buying up good English and foreign talent has allowed the youngsters both a) time to develop and b) experienced pros to learn from.
However Spurs don’t have the experience of finishing in the top 4 places. Prior to Martin Jol the excuse was always injuries (the excuse of idiots). Last season we got distracted by Europe and the season before got nerves (we should have wrapped it up way before “Lasagne-gate”!). What will stop Spurs finishing fourth this season? Something is waiting there to be overcome…
Arsenal have this experience, even in their youngsters, in droves. Yes Henry has gone but like others I think this is a sideshow to the real issues that have the posibility of bringing down their Season: a) lack of defensive cover, b) uncertainty off the field. All through the terrible last 10 years (and to a large degree the 10 before that) Arsenal have been incredibly stable off the football pitch. If these two problems get sorted before the end of August then I believe that Arsenal will finish above Spurs.
My parting shot? Every Spurs fan I know would love to see Wenger somewhere else for no other reason than to see whether Arsenal fans like Teher and KyleAusGooner still turn up once Arsenal are returned to mid-table.
Well..If Arsenal can defend better than last season and put in half of those chances we created and without and major injuries to key, I believe we would have finished in third place or better. I strongly believe that Arsenal will be much better than last season as the young players will be more mature and more experience in defending as well as converting chances. Even though we played with many young players last season, I don really find games where we were outplayed. We lost mainly due to the lack of experience.
Re: COYS
This is exactly what i mean, you know this is the same person who will be crying for Jol’s head by Christmas!!
im a gunner, but my honest opinion of spurs is that they are much improved this season. but there are two things that you can’t buy, one is consistency the other is bottle and spurs have never had either of the two!!!
This season will go to the wire! There is no way that anyone can really say decisively who out of Spurs or Arsenal have the edge? The two are as closely matched as they ever have been in the Premiership. Spurs failure to finish 4th the last two seasons have boiled down to some bad results away from home. Arsenal fans suggest that their team have underperformed in recent seasons due to a young team settling and growing together-their defensive frailty and wastefulness in front of goal will without doubt be eroded away as their talented young sqaud becomes more experienced. But any fan would be naive to think that this is a case for Arsenal being ahead of Tottenham by any large margin, because the notion of a young talented squad needing time to gel and gain the valued experience necessary to compete at the top of the league has been richly applied to Spurs for the last few seasons. It is glaringly obvious aswell, that this improvement has been taking place and will continue next season!
8 pts is a small gap, and this coming season’s two London derbies could be the only real indiction as to who might have the edge and CL football?
So the main reason why Arsenal will finish 4th again is because all their players are a year older. Well so are ours and everbody elses, we have strenghtened our squad also. This debate is making me feel even better.
Come on Asrenal bring it on, we are ready.
COYS COYS COYS
Lee,
I’m not quite sure where you get the notion that Spurs don’t have bottle - cheap shot that one mate, a bit like Adebayor in the box. As for consistency, surely you shouldn’t be throwing stones in glass house….?
Arsenal will not win the league.this year coz united r too strong but there is no season to compare spurs and arsenal.why should i justify that statement? Because spurs spent money?so wat.west ham r spending money that doesnt mean theyl finish 5th.spurs r a good side and have improved but they drop too many points against lower opposition.and they dont have enough character.i dont support arsenal by the way.
the bottom line is this, spurs have been showing improvement and arsenal have gone backwards, secondly the spurs squad is much better than arsenals and its now down to the players, the only advantage arsenal have is that wenger has been there for about 9 years and has a good establishment and an organised strategy, its now down to martin jol to get the boys playing and if he does we are going to the champions league no matter what so arsenal you better try and get into the top 4 aswell cos we are
My view is that we’ll finish 5th again. We will only overtake Arsescum should Wenger clears off back to France. Barring that, maybe if we get Ronaldinho, Terry and Rio Ferdinand! Having said that, Gooners will always be Gooners i.e. FILTH.
NYSpursfan- every single team in every league in the world could do what you did. Think of every time your team lost- if only they’d got a late equalizer they’d have got a point- that is a pointless argument as if you do the same for arsenal we’d still have beaten you.
Coys- yes every player is a year older, but not every team has as many young player as arsenal, and young players improve at a much faster rate that older players already in their peak
The arguments are useless. Spurs could have beaten us to the 4th spot two seasons back, but they didnt. If you think they will next season, go ahead. They couldnt beat our second string team in the league cup, dont have a decent record against any of the top teams, still they hope/expect/pray to be 4th, while we are trying to win the league. Our last two seasons may have been awful but when the season starts, everyone has zero points. So if you hope to see the gunners out of the top 4, go ahead,we’ll see what happens once the season starts……………..
PHIL - have you checked the average age of the Spurs squad? We too have a young team so maybe what you say applies equally to Spurs. One to watch next season is Adel Taarabt, 17 years old and the lad is mustard, real quality.
mr TAEHR
spending money is one thing and spending money wisely is another, wake up and smell the coffee look at the spurs squad, look at the strike force how can you compare west ham with spurs, secondly spurs have always been a very big club with good history and tradition thats why we have one of the biggest fan base and thats why the board is spending so that spurs can be back to where they were, remember when arsenal and man utd have 5 fa cups a piece spurs had 8 and the first to win a european trophy and to do the double so take a deep breath and accept that spurs is back,
we may have been quiet for 15 years but if you look before that we were winning things and those times are coming back, it dosent mean that if a team has been quiet for a bit, that actually means that a big club has been underachieving and now its time for all to step asside and watch the team he put england on the european map
Reasons Spurs should be Confident for future:-
-Fans are always realistic about chances of success!
-First team gave Arsenal youth a real scare in last seasons carling cup!!
-Signing Darren Bent at the Bargain price of 16.5 MILLION
-They’ve Got some english players eg Jenas,Dawson,Tom (which way did Fabregas go) Huddlestone!!
-They’ve got players with real experience of winning things eg. ER
-They ten Years behind Arsenal in planning a new stadium!!
-None of spurs players ever leave to go to Barcelona!! or Real Madrid!! or Juventus!! wonder why
-They are a real Noth London Club!!! woo hoo!!
We will get 3rd or better, don’t believe all the Arsenal he hem ’support’ they must be quaking in their borrowed cast me downs!!!
Julian- naming a 17 year old that has little to no experience isn’t quite what i’m getting at. I’m talking about a first team squad filled with young players who all have gained the experience to make them better.
Naming a talented 17yr old isn’t the same as talking about a young team who have all just had 1-2 years experience that will make them much much better. Granted next year you could make the same point about this kid, but right now the extent to which our team is based around young guys who are getting better is greater than yours.
I’m not saying that this makes us better or worse, i’m only saying that the point i made cannot really be applied to Spurs
Phil I take your point but I wasn’t using Taarabt as an example of my argument, merelely enthusing over a yougster in our ranks. Let me thunk now, Lennon, Dawson, Huddlestone, Ifil, Lee Barnard, all very young and been in and around the first team for a couple of seasons (not to mention the 17 year Bale). You have Fabregas, Hoyte (isn’t he leaving?), Jersey Joe Walcott, and a few more foreigners whose names I cant remember. Looks like its as broad as it is long to me ne c’est pas mon ami?
Ok Phil, I can understand your arguement, but what about the youth of Huddlestone, Lennon, Dawson, Bale(not at prem level admittedly) Bent (still quite young).
Whilst Arsenal have a few very young players (who are quality I might add) The spurs squad isnt exactly long in the tooth, With the exception of a few old heads like berbs, king robbo and Malbranque we have a youthful squad. This season will be interesting to watch, the integration of the new blood at spurs building on last seasons successes (and our cup runs and fifth can be seen as that) versus Arsenal’s attempt to reclimb the league to second or third. I think Henry wont be as missed as some might suggest but he still needs to be replaced by either a current gunner or one to be brougth in- as much for the fans’ sake as anything, the loss of Ljun and Henry will worry some as they are superb attacking players.
D
@nick. I was not comparing spurs and arsenal.i was giving an example regarding spending money.as for spurs being a big club i totally disagree.i mean thats y in the prem we have the big 4 not big 5. Spurs are aiming to break into the top four and are considering that to be aiming high.united ,liverpool,chelsea and arsenal are all aiming for the title. I do agree that spurs have improved but lack the depth that united and chelsea has. For these reasons spurs will finish 5 or 6 this season.
N frankly who would like to see tottenham in the champions league anyway.they’d prolly loose all the group games and give the EPL a bad name.Let arsenal and liverpool remain number 3 and 4 pliz.They atleast give a good account of themselves when they appear in europe.
Tony, how pathetic…just embarasses the Arsenal fans on this website who can debate and argue a point constructively and make sense in their points. “They ten years behind Arsenal in planning a new stadium”, well it seems as if your new stadium hasn’t done you much good in terms of financial prosper. “None of Spurs players ever leave to go to Barcelona..etc”..Berbatov couldwalk into most teams on the planet, Lennon could go to a top team, Robbie Keane could play at the highest level, Dawson is developing into one of the best young CBs in Europe..need I go on. The only reason why they dont go there is because they are loyal enough in making the club succeed and dont go back on promises of staying forever (Henry). So is Reyes a quality player then? Because hes gone to Real Madrid?? That means shit all and you know it. Real Madrid, Barca and Juve will always buy crap players (not saying that Vieira or Henry are) but they can do that you know. “Theyve got some Enhlish players”..yeah we have unlike you. And that includes Robinson, Dawson, King, Ifil, Jenas, Huddlestone, Lennon, Defoe, Alnwick, Bent, Routledge. You’ve got Walcott and Hoyte…..Think before you write mate. You ruin sensible debates and constructive points in one.
David and Julian! to be fair you are both making good points, and it is nice to see a debate between our clubs that isn’t concerned with ‘yeh but we’re arsenal and we’re better’ or ‘tottenham are the best N London club’!
Firstly, Julian I hope that wasn’t a cheap shot about our foreign based team. If it is, I simply say that we cannot afford the best English players (i’m not quite sure how you can either!), so the only way we can go forward is by buying just as good, if not better, foreign players for a fraction of the price!
Now, i’m not saying you’re squad isn’t young, far from it, you have some very young very promising players. But my point wasn’t so much about who’s got more (sorry if it seemed that way), but more around the fact that if we came 4th last year, and have young players that are improving, we have got to be odds on favorite to do it again. Again, not because you’re not improving, but because you would have to improve at a significantly greater rate than us, which i don’t as of yet see.
To define youth. If you take out three players (gilberto, gallas, lehman) then our real first team squad has an oldest player of 25. Take out another, toure, and i think it goes down to 22/23. Tottenham have some youth and some experience- a good mix- but i believe our team is out and out youth with a few exceptions.
This was just off the top of my head and i did just realise about sagna and da silva- but i believe my point stil stands. In almost each department we have one more experienced player, and the rest are all young.
Phil - I would love to carry out a head check on ages of both squads but cant be arsed. Really dont think there’s much in it but I accept your youngstes overall are better than ours. It was a cheap shot re the names and I’m sorry but I just dont accept the argument about not affording the best of British. Wenger chooses to look abroad because it suits him to. We choose not to (I hardly think 26M on 2 young British players (Bent/Bale) constitutes we cant afford the best of British). Arsenal are a great side, no doubt about it but the gloss is removed somewhat surely from your point of view given that not one of them hails from this country. At least Man U/Chelscum and Liverpool have a british spine about them. We are attempting the same ethos.
Although spurs are improving I really dont think you can compare the teams in terms of quality. when Arsenal play Man U or Liverpool, people expect it to be close and arent surprised when Arsenal win (see last season). When Spurs play them everyone expects Spurs to lose. Althought there are a few specific things that Arsenal need sorting out the quality is still much higher in Arsenals team, particularly the midfield. Without wanting to sound too provocative Id say most people would take two or possibly three spurs players for Arsenals starting team. any spurs fan who thinks more than 4 of thier players would crack Arsenals 11 is kidding themselves.
Spurs Fans need to have a little bit of believe in themselves they r well capable of getting top four and i heard that there is only 3 CL spots for next season.
As I already said newcastle and man city and possibly even west ham could also challenge for fourth
When you look at our annual spenditure, it is not high considering our stature. We have never had that much to spend and so have had to do it wisely. You’re right in a way, we could afford a 16m player in theory, but that would be it, we could get little else after that, which doesn’t make sense.
One example, you got Bent for 16m, we got RVP for 2.5m. I’m not going to debate whose better, but who do you think is more value for money?
The last English player we bought cost us 12m as a 16 year old. I would like an English player or two, but i disagree with those who say this would make us automatically better. Arsenal fans have to face the fact that most english players are overrated and overpriced, and that combined with a club that have generally not had much money is not promising. So I agree with Wenger, that there is not point paying over the odds for the sake of having an English player. I would much rather see us having Clichy/RVP for around 3m that Bent/Bale for 26m, even if they are English.
You’re right though, it does suit Wenger to go abroad, as this is where his knowledge lies, and he can get great deals for the club, i personally thinks this makes sense, and as a club, this suits us
@TAEHR
you are missunderstnding my point, the big 4 have been called the big four because theyve been there for the past few years, but the fact of the matter is that spurs are a very big club who have underachieved in recent years, you cannot say spurs are not a very big club cos they are, look at history for one, fan base as the other and tradition, where were chelsea 10 years ago infact they were nowhere at anytime in football history until 10 years ago LOL how are they a big club, what beacause of abramovich or because they won a few things recenctly, you compare there history with spurs’
spurs are gonna be where they belong as i mentioned earlier spurs were the first british team to win a european trophy, thats history thAT CAN NEVER BE BEATEN OR MATCHED, SECONDLY THE FIRST TO DO THE DOUBLE,
when spurs had 8 fa cups in 1991 arsenal and man utd had about 5 each, that goes to show how well spurs were doing in that competition, now for the past 15 years or so spurs have underachieved thats is why we call it underachievement because we are MASSIVE
15 years ago chelsea were lucky to get 9000 fans in there stadium, now all there fans are just glory hunters, weve been filling out our stadium always win or lose home and away we are there and why beacause we were always a big club and have been following the mighty SPURS,
For Tottenham to improve does not have to mean that arsenal have to decline.
Personally I think there are now 5 clubs in the reckoning. Tottenham have earned their place because of 2 consecutive 5th spot finishes and a marked improvement.
We had 8 players new to the premiership last season, yet we managed 3 great cup runs and a 5th spot in the league. This season, the 8 players have that experience with them. We have a stronger strike force with Bent in place of Mido and we have a stronger defence with Kaboul and Bale (who may even play left mid).
Whether we can push on to a CL place will depend on many factors and alot of luck (something we have lacked in the last couple of seasons when it mattered). So I feel optimistic that we can finish in the top 4, but probably in place of Liverpool who are hugely overrated.
And to the idiot who thinks that we don’t trust our manager, yep, we have had too many false dawns and some fans started to waiver, but he came good and has strengthened his position. 2 seasons seeing us improve each time and the knowledge of Berbatov actually starting the season has got your mob worried enough to start looking for excuses.
You’re not even making an argument. You’re just giving a history lesson. Sure you have a great tradition. So do a lot of the Premiership clubs, & that includes Arsenal. So what? History ain’t going to get you into the top 4. Stick to arguments that make sense such as what will Spurs do if Bent & Berbatov is injured for most of the season a la Henry & RVP. Still think they can make it into the top 4 like Arsenal did in a similar situation last year? Give me an argument that’s relevant to right here right now, not bullshit irrelevant nostalgia.
Julian-I wonder how deep your beleif in this ethos goes, is it more important than success or is it a convinient ‘at least were english’argument. Lets face it what have you got for your 26M, just because you paid over the odds Dosen’t mean that your in the same braket as Man U, Chelsea and Liverpool. What do they say about a fool and his money!!
@ TAEHR
by the way even mourinhio says its the top 5 now and by the way its because were back,
i would understand your argument if spurs had no history etc but we have achieved more than anyone after man utd, liverpool and the scum, infact our history is much better than chelseas its only the recent titles that theyve won which has made them recognisable, apart from that they are well behind us,
oh also put this in your mind we havent won anything for ages and our history is still better than rest of the premierships apart from those that i mentioned so wake up cos this GIANT is
nicktheyid, that is very true..great response.
@ spiral architect,
listen ole chap, i have been trying to explain what a big club means and spurs is that, secondly you forgot robbie keane and defoe our strike force right now is the best in the premiership, if we get it together boy i feel sorry for you cos whos gonna pay for the rent at the emirates LOL u realy need champions league regularly otherwise your gonna need to play at hackney marshes ha ha
Phil, I understand that you spent very little on RVP, but then you spent loads on wiltord, jeffers and Reyes.
Every club has their swings and round abouts, lennon cost us a million, dawson 3, and robbo 2.5 but then offset that with Rebrov, Postiga (although somehow we got our money back on him) and it all balances out. I think the differences lie in that we have payed over the odds for a striker that has proven premiership ability, and you have paid (depending on which club you listen to, 7.5 or anything up to 16) under the odds for someone that may or may not be a succes. While admittedly players like Ruud, Berbs etc can prove successful- I believe that Spurs paid that extra (and a bit too much in my opinion) to negate the season of settling in and getting to know the pace of the premiership.
While it is all well and good to blindly support your club and managers it is also prudent to remember that everyone makes mistakes: Fergie: Djemba Djemba, Kleberson, Veron ….
Wenger the ones I mentioned earlier in Wiltord etc, plus Richard Wright (who I blieve is talented but cost you a fair old wack (i may be wrong on that)).
As I have said, every club has these problems and I would lvoe to see spurs and arsenal both in the champions league with chelsea finishing fifth- SO NO GOING TO HAPPEN THOUGH i KNOW- but this is the state off football you need to make that breakthrough at some point, the status quo has to change at some point- Everton used to be up there, as did Spurs years ago and look at Leeds and WBA.
THings change and hopefully this is the spurs side to do it- if it is at the expense of our major rivals then all the better.
@ spiral architect
you see the scum decided to get a new stadium not realising that the team you had was falling apart, i applaud wenger for being able to spot talent but i think he got it a big wrong for the future cos you should have stayed conistent, pires wasnt replaced, viera, edu, bergkamp and now henry, wake up and smell the coffee everyone around you has improved and you havent, the stadium has cost you as you dont have 2 pennies to rub together, if u dont get into the champions league and if that becomes regular u might aswell go back to highbury ha ha ha,
by the way a big club has money lol
Nick-You may be a big club but so are Leeds! Your club is in danger of slipping the same way. our dept will be paid off in two years or so, wonder if you’ll b able to pay yr bills with 36,000 gates forever. The biggest following of any club in London is Arsenal the second is Man Utd..Fact!
PS Change your name show some class!!
I didn’t forget anything. How old is Robbie Keane anyway? Not that it matters because you missed my point which was saying that your whole rant about history is irrelevant. Give me an argument about your current squad. What tactics you guys will use to beat the other clubs? Is there going to be a rotation system? How does Bent fit into the team? Etc etc etc. If you do that convincingly then maybe you’ll have a point about Spurs breaking into the top 4.
You also keep forgetting that Arsenal will easily pay off whatever debt they had in building the new stadium. Arsenal is one of the most, if not THE most, financially viable clubs in the EPL.
And another thing. I’m sick of this whole argument about Arsenal not having any English players. This is just moronic island mentality. You wanna talk about the value & importance of having English players? Fine. When’s the last time England won a World Cup? You guys haven’t even managed to win a Euro Championship. What does that say about the quality of your players? Next you’ll blame it on the coaching staff & training methods! Another point - pray tell how many English managers have won the Premiership? Zilch! Zip! Nada! So both your players & your managers are not upto standard. So fuck off about Arsenal having too many foriegn players. Every club has a substantial amount of foriegn players. Man Utd is no different. Chelsea is no different & now neither is Liverpool. If having foriegn players is what it takes to be the best in England, i’ll take that for my club over being shit any day! Also, having a good number of foriegn players appeals to the worldwide fanbase that is crucial for many BIG clubs to survive & thrive nowadays. Unless you’d rather be xenophobic & isolationist & prefer English supporters for English clubs & let the rest of the world go on its merry way.
By the way, to flip to the other side of the coin, at least Arsenal is the only top 4 club left that is under majority English ownership for now. Ruminate on that!
@ tony
im a spurs fan so here we are talking about football
secondly you built your stadium on the basis that you will win things regularly to help finance it, so far youve won jack and if it continues and you dont get champions league football to pay the rent then it looks like 10 years to pay it off and maybe it looks like you will be following leeds,
and by the way you are forgeting leeds is big or was big but were never as big as spurs as i said earlier after man utd, liverpool and the scum its then spurs put it in your thick head we are massive and have mega bucks,
you see heres a fact, spurs have been wanting a bigger stadium for a long time and it will be coming soon also in our 36,000 stadium we produce more atmosphere than highbury and the emirates put together and last but not least spurs have a lot of money so we will never have such problems so unfortunately for you your comment is very shy ha ha ha lol
@ the architect
i never said anything about foreign players, every team can have whoever they need to help them achieve things, my point was basically that i was answering to someone earlier about big clubs and as i said spurs is one of the biggest maybe not the biggest but one of,
now you mentioned how are spurs gonna play with all these players (stars) well thats up to the management, but atleast you have now acknowledged that the players are there and probably a better squad than yours,
have you ever thought what will happen to arsenal when wenger leaves?
the only teams that have stayed consistent through the years are man utd and liverpool, you have to accept that the tables are turning, they turned for us and thats was due to financial problems and board room disagreements in the early 90’s but before that we were a force to be reckoned with and we aare a force again
Lets be honest Nick you cant remember when Spurs were a big club no more than me.True we’ve won nothing in our stadium we’ve been in a whole 1 season, but it will be paid for by developing other land on the old site, finnished in 2 yrs. By which time youll be lucky if your planning permision has gone through.Face it son your ten years behind in the state of the club and the football you play!!
Nick who would get into arsenals first 11 from spurs? id say 3 and thats very generous. better squad lol are you ten?
@architect
robbie keane is 27 by the way,
basically a recap on what ive been saying, spurs havent been around for the last 15 years , i can accept that, but because weve always been winning things before that time and beacause we are rich again and because the passion an the love for the club is there we are gonna be a force to be reckoned with you have to accept it, the bottom line is that arsenal have been in the decline and spurs have been on the up now this is a fact whether you like it or not and i cannot see arsenal doing what theyve done, wenger is the best manager youve ever had and ever will ahve and you have achieved all this in our erra but you have to face it soon that will be history but history to say that you are a big club yes no doubting that,
i wasnt around when bill nicholson was, that was our best erra but now things are on the up again and i sense good thing are coming, also the main thing is, spurs is owned by a very rich organisation which is actually a supporter of the club not just business orientated which means we are back and back to stay, like it or not
I love these so called expert column writers who know it all. Surprised with their great foresight they are not enjoying the fruits of their lottery winning and betting coups. Before the the seasons starts all these so-called experts pontificate. If they had a clue ther would be no point in going to games as we would all know the results. My late granny’s tea leave reading would be more pertinent even though she’s dead. Oh well back to the real world after reading thios article.
@tony
getting a stadium dosent mean anything about how good a team is, i hate to say this but at that ancient piece of shit you called highbury your best football was played there in your whole history so your argument is flawed,
secondly berbatov, keane, king, lennon, zokora(who u couldnt get), bale (who u couldnt get), chimbonda, defoe even bent who are you comparing these guys to, are you for real,
the only reason youve been playing good football is because wenger has established himself there and has a system that has been tried and works, if he had our squad they will be winning everything, martin jol has been building our team and now i beleive hes been there long enough to start getting the results and the style of football that spurs has always been known for you wait and see
I never acknowledged they were better, & Wenger leaving is a completely different matter. Ok, what if Jol left? Where would Spurs be without him? This argument works both ways. Wenger will honour his contract next season at least & that’s what we’re talking about at the moment.
If, by your logic, Spurs are a big club then what about Everton? They qualified for the Champions League over Liverpool but they couldn’t hack it for one season. I’ll say Spurs are a BIG club when they reach the top 4, maintain that position & reach some level of success on the European scene that will make them worthy of remembrance, at least in recent memory. People remember Man Utd for their treble, Liverpool for being the most successful English club on the European scene & Arsenal for their awesome display in the 2005/06 season with the players they had & the records they set.
Let me stress that RECENT memory is what’s important here. Aston Villa & Nottingham Forest have won European Cups but where are they now? People remember Celtic’s achievement on the European stage only because they did it with an all Scottish side which was a wonderful achievement in itself & a testament to the greatness of the side at the time.
What every club needs to become BIG is consistency. Arsenal have shown it more or less in the past decade since Wenger took charge. I disagree about us being on the decline. Every season is a new start for any team. People laughed at Wenger when he said his side could go unbeaten a whole Premiership season. Where are they now? I think you underestimate Wenger’s abilities for next season. What have the Spurs been doing in the last 10 years? Yes they’ve finally got a good manager & a good team to challenge for the top 4. But remember Wenger knows the pressure of being in charge of a winning club & i daresay he’s still got it in him to get the stunning results he used to.
Yes i agree its going to be a close contest this season. But like many people have said we have the experience of playing with young players as a TEAM for at least the last 2 years so i think we’ll make it.
My point about foriegn players wasn’t aimed at you specifically. It was just a rant in reply to what other people had said earlier on this thread.
And to those people who don’t like us ‘pontificating’, well don’t fucking read this stuff then & go back to the ‘real’ world whatever that is for you. This is a forum for discussion for passionate football fans. We take time out to do this because we like talking about this stuff. Since when did a lively debate hurt anybody?
I reckon the Spurs midfield was our downfall last season. The lack of quality in it put too much pressure on the defence and against the better sides was unable to create chances for the strikers. We’ve strengthened the Defense and frontline but our midfield still looks weak. A top drawer creative midfielder and left winger is needed and if we don’t get quality in these positions I sadly suspect another 5th placed finish is the most likely outcome. Hope not.
@mdh
your problem is that it has been hard for you take take that youve been underachieving, but as i said the tables are turning theres nothing you can do about it,
secondly do you realy reckon that arsenal have a better squad than spurs? are you ten?
the only decent player you have is fabregas and thats only because gilberto does the donkey work and allowes fabregas time on the ball, tore is good but cmon wake up we beat you in all positions, none of your strikers will get in our first team and thats a FACT,
as i said earlier the only thing you have on us is team chemistry but that wont be enough this season and by the time you get a deasent squad together we will be gelled together like a rock
@el
dont worry m8 all getting sorted
I would like to point out here that Spurs’ finances are much more healthy than Arsenal’s Archi. Whilst Arsenal may have abigger stadium it tok an enormous loan to be able to buil;d that and you will need qualification for the Champions league for the next four or so season to keep up the payment schedule. Now I can see this happening but if you look at spurs, we are a club who is in the black at the moment, and has been for the laswt four or so years despite not having european football and high placed premiership finished. To make a sweeping statement that you are the most viable club financially is rather silly, if you look at clubs such as Liverpool, Man Utd etc who despite their huge expenditure are also heathy financially. AS are newcastle and I believe Everton too. It is all too easy to look at things with rose tinted specticles, however it is more potent to look at the evidence. To say you are finincailly secure with a huge lona well into 200 million is rather sweeping, you are fine at teh moment, however should you fall on bad times football wise- it could be all leeds.
@ el
you gotta remember ell, ledley king was injured for 90% of last season and that made a big difference rocha is ok to cover for a couple of games but thats it,
also our very slow start cost us, think about it maybe we could have finished 4th if we didnt drop all those points also zokora was a bit behind the pace and also lennon burnt out, but now we have enough cover and we are stronger if arsenal dont get more than 75 points then we are in beleive me
EXACTLY DAVID
that was my point earlier, arsenal need regular champions league otherwise i smell problems i think the stadium came too late, it was all planned when they were winning things but by the time they built it half the team had already left and havent been replaced, so much for the future planning…lol
Nick.i have got to give it to you.u do love spurs.but the way youre going youre going you are heading for serious disappointment mate. I have a question when u say spurs are back what do you mean? Back as in heading for the title or heading for 4th?
Nick I would have argued but you really know your football. Im sure you will be laughing next season having the better team and everything.
David, if we don’t get regular CL positions then i agree that the finances look less great. But you forget that the Premiership earnings are a windfall in themselves. Check these out -
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?xml=/sport/2007/04/13/sfnbon13.xml
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6247603.stm
http://www.deloitte.com/dtt/press_release/0,1014,sid%253D2834%2526cid%253D145152,00.html
“Arsenal received about £22.4 million from UEFA the following season despite finishing runners-up in the tournament (due to the large revenues generated by the English television market, they actually received more money than winners F.C. Barcelona).”
Now apparently in the new season there is a whole new TV deal for the Premiership where the top team gets £50 million & the bottom team gets £26 million & small change.
So in any event Arsenal is still getting regular cash inflow. Add to that a decent season of ticket sales & selling t-shirts. I doubt even the most die-hard Spurs fan is going to admit that Arsenal will ever be relegated anytime soon (as much as they wish it to be so) & even if we don’t make it to the top 4, we have the UEFA Cup to play which has its own revenue set-up that is also good for participating clubs. So i seriously doubt we’ll have much in the way of problems in paying off whatever debts we have. £200 million was it you said? I call it 4 years of still being financially viable.
Calling us Leeds is a cheap shot at best. Who’s making a ’sweeping’ statment now? Arsenal spend less than most other clubs on buying players & they get a similar amount of money as Liverpool, Man Utd & Chelsea. Pray tell what part of my previous statment was ’sweeping’ & ‘generalised’?
If Spurs are in the black, its because they compete regularly in the Premiership & do relatively well so they get a decent share of the revenue. Plus they don’t spend much on players either & you have had some recent UEFA competitions. How much worse off do you think Arsenal can get compared to that situation? I’d call that comfortable even by Arsenal standards. By the way, where do you get your facts from anyway?
I’m a Spurs fan but I think we are still a little behind Arsenal going into next season. Even if we sign a left winger.
Unless..
And Jol said it somewhere “if some of our young players can develop radically”. Take 3 - bale, taarabt, huddlestone - if they make a big stride this season. And the team does better in certain situations.
Arsenal still have better control of possession than we do. But we are far better finishers. One thinks we will continue to score goals this season. If we halved the number of set piece schoolboy goals we conceded last season, we’d have made champions league.
The one advantage we seem to have over Arsenal is better mentality in front of goal. Nobody can ping it around lke they can. I cant wait till Wenger goes believe me. But give us a sniff..and we’ll bury you. I’ve noticed that we for some periods last season attacked teams in a kind of relentless way. These periods only lasted for about 5 mins or so. But there were signs that a new brand of push and run may be being brewing up White Hart Lane way.
You’d need a kind of magic for something more than 4th, if that. And we just might have it. Taarabt is the real deal. I’ll commit to him being a star - I’ve been watching this game too long not to know the real thing when I see it. The new Zidane may not be an exaggeration. Whatever the case, he’s got the gift and more importantly, he’s got the fever..the fever for the game.
I live in South Africa and the team are down here at the moment as you know. I think that his performance against Pirates tomorrow night may cement him a starting place in the lineup come day 1. If that happens, I believe the world will see the birth of a new superstar. Trust me. Take it as a little bit of mojo from down here in South Africa. Here in the cradle of humankind, where nothing seems impossible and everything may be dreamed.
Harry Hotspur, Nick the Yid..I feel you guys man…the whole community of Spurs fans I found online has really kept me going…keep the faith, the time is now. Africa reads this in the bones.
Taehr - Spurs are back because we are recognised as CL place contenders by Sir Alex and Mourinhno. We will be title contenders in 2 to 3 years. Arsenal are not realistic title contenders at present. Do you seriously believe that you can compete for the title? Who has the realistic fans now. You are living in the past. I have seen through our own experience what happens when a team lives in the past, they cover the cracks and pretend nothing is wrong. When the time comes the fall is mighty. Spurs are no longer living in the past, we have totally restructured and rebuilt and we are making progress year after year. Arsenal seem to think winning the EPL a few years ago and not now is progress. It is not you are declining, this is fact. You have the same strategy and tactics that you have had for some time. The problem is the whole premership knows your tactics now and you get beat on a regular basis. You do not see the need for change, because you are delusional. We will challenge Arsenal for 4th spot, we have changed and we are back.
The days of total football are already at Spurs, Glory is not so far away.
COYS COYS COYS
As a spurs fan, I try to remain optimistic but any hopes of 4th are still realistically a couple of seasons away. Henry may have gone but he hardly played last season anyway and was never at his best when he did.
Arsenal’s performance at the lane last season proved everything. They completely outplayed us in the second half and we were lucky to escape with a point.
The problem is the defence and of course a much needed player on the left wing. King was not at his best last season and Dawson just isn’t the same when he’s not around.
I’d love to see Pederson come but that’s unlikely. How good is Petrov? I’ve heard a price of 6 million which isn’t much nowadays. Is he the answer?
Coy coy coy i dont support arsenal. Im a die hard manu fan.and i cant stand it that spurs think they r or will be title contenders.
I agree in many ways with the comments but generally Spurs have appeared far more active in the transfer market than Arsenal. As a Spurs fan I find it hard to admit that Wenger has always done an incredible job in bringing in unknowns and developing them. However this seems to have proved to much over the last couple of seasons and they now have many players that are yet to flourish at the top level. Fabregas apart they have few proven players in the premiership, up front or in midfield. This is the number one reason I believe that Spurs will finally break free and finish ahead of Arsenal who I think will be happy with a UEFA cup place. (NO BIAS HONEST)
Nice to read a well balanced and well written article. The reason why many neutrals, not just Spurs fans, think we’re in for a big season is that last year we had around 8 players playing their first full seasons at Spurs, and when it all started to gel in the second half of the season, we picked up more points than Chelski and Man U over the last 13 matches and that was without having a settled back four for the entire season. We’ve strengthened our squad this year and, with a settled back four, it shouldn’t take a rocket scientist to predict a higher finish. You can’t stand still in the modern game and that’s what a lot of people think Arsenal are trying to do (if they’re not getting weaker by selling their star players). It still has to be done on the paddock, but there are plenty of encouraging signs for Spurs fans this year.
ps Amazing how many Man U fans (now they’ve won the league) turn up on the Arsenal sites thesedays and they all want Spurs to fail. Fair weather fans??? Surely not.
I beleive the difference this season in the ongoing battle between Spurs and Arsenal, is that every year Spurs have gone out and spent big money, with little thought about who they were buying. The last 2 seasons have been different, the players bought in have been astute buys. Berbatov is an example, also many fine young and aspiring players like Lennon , Tatabutt, karboul, Huddlestone to name a few, will ultimately be the backbone of the Tottenham team in years to come.
The future is bright………..
4th place is not far of………….
taehr…
we will be..and sooner than u think
Well even more reason to look forward to the season.
ofcourse, you take m8 speak soon
Read below the line. It smacks of inferiority complex. Not one bit of substance, except perhaps the Henry loss. Then again, Henry was as good as lost.
Does not being a “true North London” team doesn’t hold ManU back.
Perhaps we will lose to Spurs due to the excess of prawn sandwiches eaten by our fans
I am a Gooner and I have to admit that I think Spurs are a great team to watch and are definitely on the up. Their attack is second to none. I could even see them beat us for the first time in…how many games?
But both fans and players have developped an (in some cases obsessive - see below) inferiority complex towards Arsenal. Only once they have gotten over this will they be ready for the bigs time.
COYS sed:
Begins—————-
- Loss of Henry
- Doubts whether manager will extend contract
- Loss of Dein
- No Director of Football
- Large debts
- Hostile takeovers from non-football sources
- Publicly appearing not to care that they do not have first team English players, but everyone knows it is embarrassing and causes them to be the most hated supporters
- Too many fair weathered, jumping on the band wagon, prawn sandwiches type of supporters
- They wrote an article about distributing free scarves so that they can improve the atmosphere in the new library
- Only team not to be part of the English top league by merit
- The imaginary player they signed
- Signing a ‘well known striker’ called DooDoo
- Not a true North London club
- Slagging their own players off on all their blogs
- Claiming Spurs fans have delusions of grandeur – because they cannot admit to being worried about their progress even though ManU and Chelsea welcome Spurs to the top tier
- Insecure supporters, who next season will be living in the past.
—-ends
I’m not going to start bragging until we have actually get into the top four. Apart from that one game in the Carling Cup where we should have beaten Arsenal 4-0, we they looked the better team most of the time. Realistically I expect Liverpool to be pushing for the the top spot with Manu and Chelsea and it will be between us and Arsenal for 4th spot. Yes we have the squad (bar maybe a top midfielder) but we still have to perform - and we are legendary for not doing that when it counts. We still need someone in that midfield to fire the team up. Still not sure about Jol’s tactical ability either - he lost us a lot of games last season with daft changes. However being a 50 yr Spurs fan I’m forever hopeful - well you’ve got to be haven’t you. The first 6 games will tell us where we are going.
El-Zorro - I cannot take the claim of inferiority complex seriously from someone who calls himself Zorro.
I also think Spurs are a great team to watch and are definitely on the up. Their attack is second to none. I know we will beat Arsenal for the first time in how many games?
I know that I provided substance in my 16 bullet points. I know that you really are concerned by some of them if not all of them.
Arsenal have accused Spurs fans of being delusional for the last decade and I agree that some of our fans are impatient. I have not made claims in previous years that Spurs will get a CL place in the coming season.
I have provided you with some home truths. Ignoring home truths and ignoring that you are in decline is your problem. Your first step towards recovery will be to admit you have problems.
Why El-Zorro, is this because you need “zzzz’s” when you watch Arsenal play at the shh, new library.
COYS COYS COYS
At the end of the day Spurs went backwards last season regardless of what any of there fans say, the points margin increased and arsenal didnt even try in there last three games. The table never lies, nor does arsenals 18 game unbeaten streak against spurs. Theres no reason to think the decline wont continue thats why all the Spurs fans who post here are worried. Most fans can post 1 or 2 comments, safe in the knowledge that there is substance to what there saying, howeever because tottenham fans cant face the truth they just post loads of wind up messages which they know deep down arent true. At the end of the day spurs fans are more concerned about finishing behind everton and newcastle than anything else.
MDH - Speaking as a level-headed Spurs support I think there is an element of truth in what you say. We signalled our intention at the start of last season by letting Carrick go, a real class midfielder and we suffered as a result. That said, with all that’s happened to your outfit over the last 2 years (you only have 2 players left from the ‘invincible’ era) surely you too must be a little concerned about what can only be described as a decline? Come on, be a man and say what you really feel. I have many Arsecum mates who have admitted to not looking forward to next season for precisely the reasons I along with others have mentioned.
Julian, glad to have a post on here from someone level headed who Im sure knows there football. Id be happy to discuss arsenals weakpoints myself, and admit we are lacking one or two things and spurs have come on over the last 2 years. But without wanting to gloat I still think were better than Spurs and theres no point posting anything balanced on this page because half the peple who are posting on here are too biased or ignorant.
HoxtonBoy i couldn’t agree with you more in your assessment of things. As for other people talking about Arsenal being predictable, the same can be said for a lot of other teams. Arsenal’s main failing last season was in its finishing.
Time & again we would set up amazing chances (apparently being able to ignore the fact that every other EPL team knows our tactics - strange!) but we were miserable in placing the final touch on the ball to get it into the goal. Despite our injuries if we had done better in converting chances we would have been closer to Chelsea last season in points. Our main battle was psychological & learning to function together as a newly knit team. I don’t buy this crap about the rest of the League ‘knowing’ the way we play. How did we beat first string Liverpool & Man Utd teams with our young inexperienced bunch then? Even in the Carling Cup final we gave Chelsea serious bellyache with our playing style. So this whole concept of the League ‘having Arsenal’s number’ is complete & utter shite. If we ‘get beat on a regular basis’ how the hell have we stayed in the top 4 till now?
I think 4th place might just be a 3-way race between Arsenal, Liverpool & Spurs. I say this now because i’ve been thinking about Benitez’s style & i’m wondering how well he can integrate the new players into Liverpool. Rotation system seems to be great for knock-out matches but does it work really well in the Premiership? How well will his new additions adapt to the English game? He still lacks players in curcial areas. Only time will tell & i’ll be more than willing to revise my judgement if he does well.
I agree going from being title contenders to struggling for 4th spot is a decline, but people were saying crap like that about SAF & his team a few years ago & look how well he did. He came back with a vengeance. I would put Wenger at par with SAF any time of day.
I also find it particularly hilarious that one of the justifications Spurs fans use as being worthy of 4th place is because SAF & Mourinho said so! How do you expect to call yourselves a ‘Big Club’ if you look for approval from the top teams? You don’t see Liverpool or Arsenal fans saying that! Somebody mentioned something about Spurs having an inferiority complex. I am now beginning to understand what they meant.
its not a dream its a nightmare 4 tottenham they r not the 5th best team in the country just cause they finshed their its thanks to luck and berbatov tottenham are overated money spendin freaks its all arsenal keep dreamin tottenham any the only reason ppl say tottenham are the best team in the prem apart from top four is because commentatros like garry linekar hansen laursen always back them up cause they have lots of english players and thats talent goin to waste lennon dawson defoe etc they always sign english talent and waste it spuds r jealousss were better more trophies more successs more supporters keep dreamin spurs
MDH - apologies for the long delay. Just on your point of Arsenal being better than Spurs, that wasn’t the issu