Southgate v Woodgate, Middlesbrough v Tottenham - Who Has More Ambition?
When Jonathan Woodgate recently departed Middlesbrough for Tottenham in an £8million deal he could not help himself in having a pop, not only at his former boss Gareth Southgate, but the ambition of his hometown club.
The England international central defender enjoyed a fantastic first season back in the Premier League when Boro brought him back from an injury-ravaged nightmare spell at Real Madrid in summer 2006.Woodgate enjoyed his time at the Riverside so much he agreed to sign a £7million deal before the end of last season. However as Boro struggled for form in the first half of the season, so did Woodgate’s and he was promptly offloaded to Spurs in the January transfer window.
On his departure, instead of thanking Southgate for handing him the opportunity to re-establish himself in the Premier League, Woodgate instead crowed about how it was great to be at a club with a ‘proper manager’ in the guise of Juande Ramos and slammed the Teessiders for their lack of ambition.
In response Southgate, who made no bones about the fact he is vastly inexperienced compared to Spanish tactician Ramos, was more miffed at Woodgate’s attack on the club’s ambition. The rookie Boro boss rightly pointed out that a £12.7million swoop for Brazilian striker Afonso Alves, which broke the club’s transfer record, is not the actions of a team lacking ambition. As for silverware prospects Woodgate could secure a Carling Cup Final medal this month, but Spurs must get past Chelsea for that to happen. T
hen again Boro travel to Sheffield United in the FA Cup fifth round this weekend knowing a win would put them two games away from a Wembley final and a probable return to European football. In the Premier League Spurs are a meagre one place and three points better off than Boro which leads to more head-scratching when Woodgate’s departing comments had us all believing he was leaving Teesside for one of football’s super powers.
Finally, perhaps Woodgate should have looked at the more recent history of both clubs stretching back to 1997. Boro’s average Premier League finish is 11th to Tottenham’s ninth, while the North-East outfit have been to an FA Cup Final, three League Cup Finals and a UEFA Cup final with the 2004 Carling Cup success to show from that. Spurs have managed just two League Cup Final appearances, one of which was won, to show and one to come on February 24.
When the facts are laid it out for all to see it certainly makes you wonder where Woodgate is coming from here? Then again why should Boro worry too much when they got their money back and have arguably a better replacement already in the team in the form of David Wheater which you could say is why he was allowed to leave in the first place. Anyone for Sour Grapes??
Written by Craig Smithson, a Middlesbrough season-ticket holder and a professional sports writer who blogs about football betting at Betfair.
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That is a very clearly biased piece. Any neutral fan will tell you that Spurs are by far Boro’s superior. Stats will tell you anything you want them too.
No? You know as well as I do that the current position of Spurs in the table is completely false as to where they should be (due to the dreadful start), and that Spurs are actually going places. Whereas Middlesbrough…
Plus, looking at the two teams man for man, we beat them all over the pitch. I’d go as far to say that I would not have *any* of the M’brough team in a Spurs 11. Before he came here, Woodgate was easily their best player. Now he’s at Spurs.
thinking about it another way, what Spurs have is ‘potential’, and over the last few years, ‘results’ have failed to live up to the potential.
On the other hand, Boro seemingly tend to over-achieve.
So what matters - potential or results?
Well, I was slightly surprised myself at his comments (if they are taken in correct context).
I will try to give an honest Spurs perspective: it is true Middlesborough have a much better recent cup record than Spurs. Tradition, however, is against you. The cup you won is the only cup in your history, isn’t it? Spurs have won leagues, FA cups, league Cups, UEFA cups, Cup Winners Cups…and you yourself concede that even a notoriously underachieving Spurs have still finished consistently higher in recent years than a (some may say) overachieving Middlesborough side.
The issue, however, wasn’t about history, but about ambition. Despite ashocking start to the season, many pundits believe that, with the arrival of Ramos, Spurs are starting to look like Top Four contenders (for next year, obviously). Middlesborough, IMHO, are just waiting for the type of slump that notoriously happens to teams that have overachieved for a while (cf Charlton Athletic).
Ramos is considered to be one fo the best managers in Europe at the moment; Gareth, is, well, the ever likeable gareth, but he is just cutting his managerial teeeth. Middlesborough have created a production line of exciting young (mostly local) talent in recent years, but pound-for-pound I don’t believe any neutral observer would accept a parity in potential between the two squads. Ultimately, the ambition of Spurs, which the board is driving relentlessly toward , in terms of playing squad and infrastructure investment, is to be Top Four; the ambition of Middlesbnorough has prettymuch reached a peak at mid-table and the occasional trophy push. So, technically JW is right - Spurs are more ambitious than Niddlesborough - which is not the same as saying that Middlesborough aren’t ambitious - perhaps it would be more correct to say that the height of Spurs ambitions are more lofty than those of Middlesborough (with both teams having similar opportunities to fulfill their respective ambitions).
As for Wheater being better than Woodgate - I can’t really comment on Wheater, I haven’t seen enough of him for a comparison. in regard to Woodgate, however, I can only say that I have always had a slight mistrust of him ever since the notorious racist attack incident; this has been accererbated by his constant injuries. it is, however, commonly considered that he is perhaps most naturally talented English central defender of his generation, and his performances so far for Spurs have been revelatory.
An honest enough Spurs fan to have predicted ArseScum for the title at the start of the season, and with no axe to grind against Middlesborough folk.
I think that this article is itself guilty of the final two words aimed at Jonathan Woodgate: sour grapes. It reads like the despairing lunge of a Darren Moore as Fernando Torres races past. Your choice of statistics is laughable, since it deliberately sections off most of Spurs’ success. But then I don’t agree with Woodgate’s comments, either, though I feel that they were taken out of context and blown up by the media (the English media? well I never!).
Ambition itself is almost impossible to quantify - every club in the Premiership has the ambition to get a Champions League place; what is perhaps different is that not all clubs have the means to do so. ‘Boro are clearly an ambitious club, and one for whom I have a great deal of admiration, especially due to their work with the youth academy. However, I don’t think that ‘Boro have the fan base or the club size to consistently attract top players and to consistently be in the upper echelons. Southgate can bleat on about the money spent on Alves if he so wishes - I’m not certain that signings are necessarily the yardstick next to which ambition is to be measured - but if we are to follow such a logic, then Spurs are clearly the more ambitious club since they were able to go out and buy Woodgate without having to sell one of their most experienced players, as ‘Boro had to do to obtain Alves in the first place.
Ultimately, it probably boils down to the fact that Spurs were willing to pay Woodgate more money, much as a purist I’d love to believe elsewise.
Hugo - what success?
Tottenham are the 5th most succesful team in English football history.
Guys, Woodgate was the central defender of a team that has a huge GD of minus 17. Glad to be rid… is one of the expressions that springs to mind. Especially considering that he has gone to the team that are languising 1 place above us. Heres to more of woodgates special talent, I, along with all middlesbrough supporters, wish you the best he can offer.
Hugo, that’s a bit like saying that Liverpool are the most successful team in English football history. And you know where Liverpool are in the table, right?
Yes, Ahmed. But if you’re entering into an argument about which is the bigger club, or the more ambitious one, out of Liverpool and ‘Boro, which would you plump for? I was merely attempting to demonstrate that the writer had offered a deliberately skewed view of the clubs’ relative successes, probably fuelled by feelings of betrayal.
I can see why Middlesbrough has let him go, Woodgate was our most sellable asset in defence and the price was right. But, Huth is now showing the talent he has and David Wheater for me has been our player of the season so far. Yes, we’ve brought Woodgate back into English football and yes, he was a rock for us last season. This is one of the reasons we signed him perminently.
On the flip side of that, the Goal Difference of -17 is mainly because of the defence, which he was a part of. Ok the forward players have also missed several changes to score and this also adds to the goal difference factor, but Middlesbrough have now not lost in the last 7 games. That shows signs of improvement, and Wooddgate has obviously not been apart of this recent form.
I think spending £12.7 Mil on a virtually unknown player is a bit of a gamble and could prove a costly one. Only time will tell. This does show huge ambition to go for someone as highly priced as this. His goal scoring record speaks for itself, the question is can he do it in the Premiership. Hopefully, Yes.
I don’t care much for stats, so I won’t go into that side of the arguement.
At the end of the day the table doesn’t lie!! and Spurs are above Boro (only just). I think Spurs are in a false place at the moment because they do have a lot of good players and should be higher. Middlesbrough don’t have as many players of high quality but the club is under a novice manager that hasn’t done a bad job so far.
Finally, I am a bit put out by Woodgate’s comments, but we made our money back on him and he served us well while he was here.
What does this all mean for Southgate’s future at the club? I remember an article some time ago on this site that talked about firing him…(of course that was before he beat Arsenal)
Tottinghams comment “Plus, looking at the two teams man for man, we beat them all over the pitch. I’d go as far to say that I would not have *any* of the M’brough team in a Spurs 11.” Really? what about Schwarzer surely he’s better than Radish cerny & Paul ‘Dropingsome’.
what about Downing for the left flank?
Boro’s most sellable asset is not Woodgate, but Stewart Downing. If Downing had joined Spurs(like most rumours stated) and said this, we could have understood. But Woodgate who should be thanking Southgate and the whole of Boro for being able to attract any sort of attention from a football club doesnt have the right to say this. Who knows how long he’ll play before he gets injured. Then again, this is a common occurence in football, so why are we surprised.
As a footnote, I’m hoping that if Flamini does indeed leave Arsenal at the end of this season, Wenger moves heaven and earth to go for Downing…………
It don’t take a sports pundit to relise Spurs Are in a better posistion as a club then Middlesbro, I think this article was definatly Sour Grapes on the writers behalf!! (I can pull stats out to make us look better then Chelsea if i liked dosnt mean its true!!) I think Woodgates comments where prob blown up by the media! why the hell would he critisize a club/manager who saved his career?? I like Middlesbro and I do hope they and GS do well I urge thir fans to take this story with a pinch of salt.
Ha, Boro will never win anything and Southgate rightly is not a grat manager as anyone can see,
As for an FA cup final! ha! bit optimistic to say the least!
If we lay down the facts
Spurs - 5th 2 seasons in a row, 2 consecutive Uefa cup campaigns, a carling cup final coming up
Boro - Erm!
I think a common theme in this debate so far is to mistake actual and current success for ambition. For instance, the league table may be an indicator of current success, but does not accurately reflect a club’s ambition. Both Spurs and Boro are bottom half, but in the next few years, the ambition of one is perhaps a top half/top 7 place, the other top four.
Let’s look at Europe. It is the ambition of Spurs to win the Uefa cup and qualify for the Champions League. It is Boro’s ambition to qualify for Uefa. Which ambition is greater?
As far as talk of signing Alves (a hopeful star and 1st choice) for around 12 million being a reflection of the board’s ambition, fine. That’s quite ambitious.
Now consider the Spurs board buying Bent - a 3rd choice striker (and you know full fitness would not change this)- for around 16 million.
It was unprofessional of Woodgate to make such comments. That should be the issue, if any. But we all know that he is technically correct. Boro may be ambitious, but are less so than Spurs. Southgate is ok with the media and i suspect great with man-management, but comparaed to Ramos he barely has a CV.
This is said with reason and absence of any malice. So no claims of sour grapes please.
if southgate knows he is inexperinced why didnt he learn his trade in the lower leagues, like other former players (eg ince, keane). if middlesboro think they have ambition why do they employ a manager with no track record. does paying 12 million for one playing show ambition, i dont think so.
Tottinghams - Funny how Ramos thinks differently to you, seeing Woodgate, Downing and Johnson as players he wants to see at Spurs.
I fear reputation and ambition are being mixed currently. Quite frankly, I couldn’t care less as to how many titles Spurs have won, unless one of them was a Premiership, you have no real recent league successes.
Middlesbrough, league-wise, have not overachieved for a long time. Sure, we’ve done superbly well in the cups, but in the Premiership, we have always struggled to overcome lesser teams, usually resulting in a midtable finish.
Jonathan Woodgate, the man in the middle is a funny player. His first season with us, he was simply sensational. He marked Thierry Henry off the park on his debut.
This season however, he has lacked quality. He lacks the composure or mental strength to consistently put in good performances. He has barely managed a look in beyond the solid partnership of Huth and Wheater.
Hugo - I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again. We did not NEED to sell Woodgate to sign Alves, although no doubt it helped.
ollie - is throwing £16m at (what was then) fourth choice striker ambitious? Or just plain stupid?
spurs for every - The reason Southgate stayed was because of the request of Steve Gibson, unarguably one of the nicest chairmen in the League. He wanted to employ someone who was willing to keep the current backroom staff, as it was them who had got us there. You can’t say he’s doing too bad a job either, theres been a lot of work to do to mend the damage done in the latter years of McClaren.
Anyway, as for my opinion of Woodgate. I think its quite arrogant to be honest. We lack ambition for selling him, Spurs have ambition for signing him - does this make Woodgate the pinnacle of ambition?
Simply put, he feels that he is better than he is. By accepting the offer for him, we made it clear that he was not indispensible to the club, so it would appear highly unlikely he would want to stay anyway. The real point is that he believes Tottenham have more ambition than Newcastle United.
This, I feel was just a swipe at Southgate for dropping him from the squad altogether - shocking news for a former England defender. He is not the class act he appeared last season, much like Yakubu, he needs constant, enjoyable, easier challenges thrown at him; not what we were offering in a lower table battle.
And I must say, at least alongside King and Dawson, he should have much more company when he is injured.
I think that Woodgate probably got feed up with playing in front of empty red seats, in a stadium with no atmosphere for a club that has no history or tradition. On top of that Boro have a manager with no charisma and experience and players who have limited ability.
Good luck to Mr Alves, I’m sure Boro will be a great stepping stone for him.
A club with no history or tradition?
Someone clearly can’t be arsed to look into any research.
Tom - I googled Boro history and found 1 League Cup and 1 Anglo Scottish Cup victory in 1976. Correct me if I am wrong but it doesn’t seem that Boro have had too many glory nights. Perhaps if they did more people would turn up.
So its only trophies that give a club history?
*More cup finals in the past 12 years or so than any club outside of the top 4*
Who knows how many promotions since 1986. 4 or 5 I think.
The two impressive UEFA Cup comebacks in recent years, which, lets be honest, most of the nation watched.
Hasn’t this got quite ridiculous Tom?
If you refer to the title of the page, will it not say Southgate vs Woodgate, Boro or Spurs: Who has more ambition? That is what this debate is about, right?
And here you are clutching at anything you can to prove that Boro even have a respectable history. I actually like Boro. As they are. A decent premiership team that have made their mark on English football. But they are no Tottenham Hotspur. Simple.
I’ll respond to your comments anyway.
Woodgate has seemed to be a sound purchase based on his performances to date, but I accept that you will have seen more of him than me and are better placed to make a decision on his ability than I am. But if it’s okay with you I’d rather place my faith in the collective professionals at Real Madrid, Boro, and Spurs that were responsible for bringing him to there respective clubs.
Personaly, I was gutted when I read that we’d signed Bent for that much. It’s stupid, but like I intended it, it is clear evidence of the ambition of the spurs board, however foolish. Like most of the other fans on this page, you can twist this anyway you want Tom, but unfortuneately for you the reality remains the same - as does the actual subject of this debate. Woodgate was right and Boro are undeniably less ambitious than Spurs.
I hate to say that Arsenal are a more ambitious club than Spurs. But I can. Why can you not concede that Spurs are more ambitious than Boro?
Because ambition is a difficult thing to discuss, and simply to state one club has more of it than another is nigh on impossible.
Since our UEFA Cup run (and maybe even before), Steve Gibson has said he wants to see us, and believes he will see us, in the UEFA Cup. Yakubu said much the same thing while he was with us.
Now, unless Spurs are aiming for the League title, do they not share the same ambition?
Or does ambition need credibility and history?
I don’t believe in how much ambition a club has. In today’s world of power-corrupted football, it all boils down to who will throw the most money at a player that determines ambition.
Oh, and yes. It is totally ridiculous, but I do hate to walk away from an argument
Cross out wants to see us ‘in the UEFA Cup’ and replace it with ‘Champions League’.
Tom,
Let me put ambition this way, if you were watching MOTD on a Saturday night and saw Middlesbrough’s home games and Tottenham’s, where would you want to play your football?
Not in front of all those fans dressed as red seats!
Additionally, promotions since 1986!! Didn’t Dave Bassett have something like 7 in 10 years or something (I haven’t researched this), but he’s hardly known in the hall of fame.
Fair enough Tom. I appreciate that. Ambition is impossible to measure objectively. I’ve refered to it more subjectively for this discussion, as meaning intentions and hopes concerning certain targets - the higher the targets, the greater the ambition.
I think history is more a matter of pride than an indicator of current ambition. But ambition should be credable.
While on the subject of Steve Gibson, I’d like to say that it’s good to see a chairman with an ounce of patience and sense of realism. I wish him and boro success.
I think yesterday’s events put an end to this debate. Well done Spurs and well done Woodgate!