Kia Joorabchian, Tevez, West Ham and third-party contracts
A Soccerlens reader (thanks WP) mailed me a link to this article on Kia Joorabchian and Carlos Tevez and pointed something out which I thought would be interesting to talk about, despite the fact that it’s almost a month old now.
It’s interesting because I think Kia’s right - that the MSI - West Ham agreement over Tevez and Mascherano is quite similar to club - to - club loan agreements, and as a result, there is no case to be made for West Ham violating rule U18.
Basically, what caught me eye here was this passage:
It is a little bit like a loan deal between two clubs, except it is a loan deal between the club and a third party.
You buy the player outright, you invest in the player and the clubs sign him from you; they take the registration, the rights on any resale belong to you.
It does not give you any right to influence when he can play or where he should play. Unlike some of the loan deals in England, where, for instance, Ben Foster or Tim Howard cannot play against Manchester United.
Update:WP asked about this phrase in particular: “the rights on any resale belong to you” - and I think that means that only the owning party - MSI or other third parties involved - own the player and the decision to sell / transfer the player rest with the third party and the revenues from that sale go completely to the third party as well.
The loan bit made me think again about what I had written earlier about the Tevez ruling - where I had said that West Ham had broken both rules B13 and U18.
In retrospect, the conditions of a loan agreement between MSI and West Ham over Tevez seem very similar to the loan agreements signed between two clubs over a particular player.
The more I look at it, the more it seems that technically, the players ARE on loan to the clubs under the same circumstances as those of club-to-club loans - that is, the original club owns the transfer rights, could recall the player and trigger a transfer, etc.
What do you guys think?
Related Items from Soccerlens
- Could Sheffield United please shut up?
- Sheffield United to sue West Ham - apparently they like begging
- Did Sheffield United violate Rule U18?
- 3 reasons why Manchester United refused to buy Mascherano
- Football News Roundup - September 05
Only one comment, yes I agree entirely. This whole mess and subsequent embarrassment of Sheffield Utd is down to very dense writing by the tabloids and some very unclear statement from the premier league.
Finally someone sees the light. This whole thing has been a beat up by a number of threatened parties. I’m convinced if West Ham had been in the top half of the PL they would have contested the original fine and would have more than likely have won.
The fact that post season the PL AGM is looking to clarify the loan rule also adds to the strong case that the U18 rule is not enforceable in its current form.
It is also clear that current loan deals between clubs ARE exerting influence on team selections but a deathly silence ensues about these deals.
This is old stuff. Alan Curbishley said the same thing before the panel handed down its verdict. He even specifically mentioned Tim Howard. Come on guys get on the ball!
I have been pointing this out on various forums for some time.
I agree in principle that there is little difference between the WHU/MSI position and a club loan. In fact, the “acceptable” within the rules club loan is worse because it undoubtedly can result in third party influence since the loan player can be recalled with little or no notice.
However, this is an inconsistency in the PL rules.
While the situation may to all intents and purposes be the same, one is within the rules and the other is (potentially) not.
The whole thing is a nonsense of the PL’s making.
In the final event, WHU, in my view, have broken the rules but it was an exceedingly minor offence and not worth all the countless reams of newsprint etc written about it. Certainly, either Wigan, Sheff Utd et al. have only been playing this for their own potential advantage. They have demonstrated repeatedly that they don’t understand the rules yet they want WHU pilloried for it.
John
Johnny - to be fair he does say it’s an old article. Glad it’s been brought up again though.
Yawn, Yawn, Yawn……..
it’s all very, very boring now.
The sooner this whole thing dies down the better. Ruling has been made, we got fined and Sheff U have been relegated. Forget about it and focus on next season for fucks sake….
“Glad it’s be brought up again” - Do me a favour!
Eureka, the penny drops at last!
I am a West Ham supporter and think we should be deducted points. About 2 for what amounts to a minor misdemeanour seams fair to me. What do you guys think?
From day one I have maintained that this deal was simillar to a loan deal between clubs. I have no doubt that one of the reasons we were not punished further than the fine was due to ambiguity of the rule. It is perverse that Man Utd can induce Watford to drop their best player ( Ben Foster ) in both league games and an FA cup semi final . That is a third party influencing team selection , is it not? You also have the Tim Howard situation , who although no longer a Man Utd player did not play against them. Instead a rookie keeper came in and cost them the match. I am sure this was brought to the leagues notice. If they deducted points from West Ham , surely the same would have to be done to Man Utd !! I have no doubt we will soon be seeing a raft of new rules to close up these loop holes and to keep that can of worms firmly shut.
I agree with other posts. The whole affair has been blown out of proportion by the press. They were caught completely unaware by the transfer of Tevez & Mascherano and made to look pretty stupid. For days after the same quotes and reports filled all the papers and offered absolutely nothing new of insightful into the transfer coup. The press hated that and were looking for some payback. They certainly were’nt going to let any facts get in the way of some revenge , hence the ridiculous circus that surrounded West ham since the verdict. Add to that a group of desperate chairman wanting to avoid relegation and you have a lynch mob.
Can I suggest a leaflet drop over Sheffield and Wigan with all the salient points, including this one (which I also read three weeks ago) in big writing, then perhaps the message might get through after which WHU should demand an apology from various chairmen. No wonder most clubs have kept quiet - what kind of worms would pop out of THIS can, if ‘gentlemen’s agreements’ relating to loan deals were looked at more closely.
Have you seen Al Fayed’s jumped in with both feet again. Only problem is they are both firmly attatched to his mouth. There must be some course of action for the club against this continual slander. P.s don’t forget to deduct Sheff Utd three points for cheating there way down to 7 men a couple of seasons ago!
The problem with all of this is that it opens a million cans of worms.
The deal was like a loan deal except it was for 4 years. The whole thing about so called 3rd parties owning players has come to the foreground because of the amount of money floating around. It’s no coincidence that since the Premiership came into being agents are suddenly more important. They’re controlling players lives like never before, extracting as much out of ‘the brand’ as possible. Everybody had dollar signs before their eyes when the Premiership and the Sky money was floating around. Every team bought into it and as a result we have a mediocre League(Championship, League 1, 2) and a very rich handful of clubs. All of the greed filters down - players have no loyalty and feel they have to make the most out of their careers. In their ears are the agents. So we’d better get used to agents or agent-like companies (like MSI) buying clubs, owning players and the rest of it unless they change the rules/laws.
The point I’m coming to is this - these type of deals have been around bending and breaking rules since the Premiership came into being, and if the Gang of Four push this it’ll open up. Check into the way that Chelsea and Man Utd have dealt with players and you’ll find similar deals. Loan deals that went on for years with the player immediately recallable by the owning club (check out deals involving Veron in particular). West Hams new Chairman is far from stupid and has been around the administration of the European game for years. So if Fayed, the embittered Yorkshiregirls, etc want to continue with this then so be it. Personally, I would welcome just such an explosion of corruption, investigations, inquiries, etc. Maybe then we might see the game come back to what it is.
http://www.football.co.uk/fulham/al_fayed_vows_to_fight_on_247689.shtml
t5c
Never gonna happen because as soon as people like Fayed and the Yorkshire district ladies start treading on their own future interests they will stop just like that. If someone was doing it for the future good of the game then fair but not for people pedelling their own interests I can’t stomach it!
i agree wiv jaime its old news and dosnt need to be brought up again… but i did hear one funny fing, sheff utd supporters tried to start a demonstration march but cudnt get enuff people together so they asked the sheff wed fans to join in …… dikheds
Like all hammer fans,i am grateful for Tevez helping West Ham stay up.But he needs to stop keep chopping and changing his mind as to whether he’s staying or not.Us fans have the right to be informed correctly,not messed about.We’ve been through enough already.
i agree that the deal itself is basically the same as many other loan deals, but i don’t think that is really the issue at stake. from my understanding of the situation the charges are more directed at the west ham management for not handing the proper documents over to the PL. if the issue was truly about a third party agreement tevez’s registration would not be such a touchy issue. however if the west ham management did not give the PL the proper paperwork than the arguement over tevez’s eligibilty makes alot more sense.
to be honest crazyhorse i dont expect tevz to be here next season so the longer he is undecided the better for me as he is still at the club do you reeli expect him to say “i will be here next season” get real
its not a question mkhammer of him saying hes going to stay its the constant fartarsing about thats going on.If he wants to go then just go,theres enough goung as it is with those muppets from Sheff Utd buzzing around like a annoying gnat over the previous business over Tevez.Do I think he’ll be here next season…couldn’t tell ya im not uri gellar,thats the reality.
to be honest i dont fink tevez will be here next season crazhorse but the hole shef utd fing is a load of bollocks neway the the wont get reinstated an the premier league know they wont and so do everyone else the only thing i am concentratin on now is if a miricle will happen an tevez will stay an ne ova signings we make this summer
Er West Ham pleaded guilty and now you are suggesting they didn’t have a case to answer almost?
Oh dear….