How many ‘match winners’ do Liverpool have?
Fernando Torres is destined to be in the media spotlight (it must be in his DNA) – whether he’s at AM or Liverpool or playing for Spain, the world will always have time to talk about Torres.
And so, it seems, does the manager. Rafa Benitez says that quality players (like Torres) must get protection from referees because they get fouled a lot. I understand the need to ‘protect’ talented players but Rafa, shouldn’t we work on improving the standard of refereeing (which, as FC keeps pointing out, is a bloody tough job) instead of creating divisions amongst players?
Do you seriously imagine that a day will come when if Torres is tackled, the ref gives the defender a red card but if Voronin is scythed in half, no one bats an eyelid?
Sidenote: Is paranoia a side-effect of extreme pressure?
Rafa has also talked about his decision to rotate the Liverpool squad, and while I completely agree with his rotation tactics what I don’t agree with at times are his tactics and his faith in his players. As Rafa rightly said, Kuyt, Voronin and Crouch are good enough to beat Brum, you don’t need Torres for that. However, this implies that the Liverpool squad plays well without Torres, which is not the case.
I like Voronin and Babel, but for me the only serious change from last year for Liverpool has been the inclusion of Torres. The Liverpool of last year would have stumbled against Brum just like Liverpool without Torres stumbled against Brum last weekend. Torres gives them something special, like Ronaldo gives United, but without Torres Liverpool don’t play with the fluidity and aggression that a team of their stature should be playing. Rafa is too cautious with his teams; Liverpool need to push forward more.
For all the talk about ‘squad depth’, the real measure is whether you can survive without your star players and whether you have enough ‘match winners’ in your team. I’ll put this question to you:
How many ‘match winners’ do Liverpool have?
And as a follow-up, tell me who you think the match winners are for the other clubs in the top 4.
[Source: BBC]
Topics: Fernando Torres, Liverpool, Rafael Benitez
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If you’re looking for ‘go-to’ men, then 3. LFC have 3 players that they look to to pull them out of the trenches so to speak. Gerrard obviously, Torres now, and Carragher. Ok, Carragher isn’t very likely to pop up with a vital goal to win it in the last minute, but his contributions defensively are essential. See extra time in the Istanbul final where he time and again held Milan attacks at bay. Gerrard needs no introduction to this sort of list. Torres is starting to show his quality as a matchwinner too, but I think it’s a bit early to put that much pressure on him in this context.
However, it’s a bit of a cliche really, after all you could say that on their day Alonso, Babel, Kewell (if he ever gets fit), Crouch and Kuyt all have their moments as well. LFC fans will point to the derby game at Anfield a while back where Gerrard was sent off early on and Alonso ran the game for us in his place, does that make him a matchwinner? As it’s not the only occasion that he’s done that. Babel I believe will be able to stand up with Gerrard and Torres on his own merit in a couple of seasons. Kewell didn’t score but pretty much won the FA Cup Semi final vs Chelski on his own by playing to his full ability, something we desperately need to see from him again. Kuyt runs teams ragged and often doesn’t get the praise he deserves for constantly harrassing the opposition, and there were several occasions last season where his persistance was the difference in a game. Crouch’s height is often the tactical reason for us winning a game, and Babel will one day be able to stand up with Gerrard and Torres as a ‘go-to’ man.
These players aren’t what you’d call ‘matchwinners’ in the traditional sense, but their ability to deliver the right performance at the right time on a constant basis is, more often than not, a direct result of Rafa’s tactics, so in that sense, matchwinners are determined by the manager for each match, and LFC have a fair few.
September 28th, 2007 @ 13:57After 10 games in the season we got these goalscorers, that tells me of a team that consists of more than Torres….
Torres 6
Voronin 3
Kuyt 3
Alonso 2
Sissoko 1
Crouch 1
Hyypiä 1
Gerrard 1
Babel 1
Benayoun 1
And this is without the so called “one man team” that is Gerrard in form. When will this BS raging against Rafa end??
We have had it for years now, Gerrard this, Gerrard that… Now its Torres… Is Gerrard sudenly gone from being a one man team to a fringe squad player?? The answere is no, the team has improved alot. And we now got great players in all positions, with as good backup as the first eleven. The reason for that is to have the posebility to leave one player out without fielding a weaker team.
Torres had a shyte game against Porto, as did alot of players. He didnt manage the physical porto defenders, so when up against equal physical defenders a few days later. Benitez decided to go with a more physical aproach up front, with Birmingham holding 10 men behind the ball on their own 25 yard line.
He might got the tactics wrong, but even the most brilliant tacticians sometimes get it wrong. To get it wrong one time this season, would be remarkable. But my guess is that Rafa will get it wrong later in the stage aswell. As will anyone. Still we got a better start than ever under Benitez, and still better than the rivals Man Utd and Chelsea.
If leaving Torres “wrongfully” out of one game is what you bloggers/journalists have to complain about this year. I salute Rafa, for getting almost everything correct. Well done gaffer.
September 28th, 2007 @ 14:19Here we go Bilal, you don one sensible blog and then come up with your usual anti LFC drivel. Well done lad, I won’t be wasting time in this blog any further.
September 28th, 2007 @ 14:43A matchwinner, in my view, is someone who can be consistently relied upon to change the tide of a match single handedly, whether that be through the ability to produce individual moments of brilliance or the quality to control the flow of a game all on their own. Liverpool have two matchwinners, Gerrard and Torres. Saying someone is not a matchwinner is not an insult to their ability as you Liverpool fans seem to be taking it. In fact they arent even completely correlatted, Alonsos game as a CM is indesputably more tidy and well rounded than Gerrards, yet it is Gerrard who the team rely on. Babel could prove to be a matchwinner in a few years but from the rest of the team no-one really stands out as anything other than solid. Kewell was 7 years ago, now hes poo.
Arsenal (my team) with our current line up have the ability more so than any other team in the league to outplay our opposition and control games. Last season we were bettered in about two matches throughout the campaign (less than anyone) but we finished streets behind the top two. Why? Because we didnt have matchwinners showing. Henry was shit and Van Persie got injured when he was starting to look like one. This is changing this year with Hleb and Adebayor starting to show signs of growing, Rosicky and RVP also clearly have the potential to be matchwinners but for now Arsenals only one is Fabregas. If the rest start to live up to their potential we will be there or there abouts come may.
Chelsea have Drogba, Essien, Lampard (another who is a matchwinner despite a less than stellar alround game), and Ballack if he is used properly, Robben was also one.
Man U have Scholes, Rooney, Ronaldo whos (all 3) consistently good form last season was the only difference between them and the rest, as well as now Tevez. Giggs was last year but hes starting to get past it. I still think that when these guys arent performing Man U look average.
I think its also quite interesting seeing how Barcelona and real have about 6 or 7 each, scary shit!
September 28th, 2007 @ 15:51I like what Rafa is doing and support him even when he makes a mistake. I don’t like mistakes but think he is right much more than wrong. Our team is getting better and I do notice other big teams making more substitutions than people talk about! So, can’t this rotation talk be put to bed now. That’s 3 years at Valencia and now another 3 years here at ‘Pool and his record is spectacular and getting better each year. So, guys, please take a pill chill and let the media say whatever they will to try and get you involved but do think before you rant on about one of the best gaffers in the world!
September 28th, 2007 @ 16:21Me being an arsenal fan has nothing to do with this, still I have to say, If Liverpool has only one match winner called Torres, Man U has only one match winner called Ronaldo.
September 28th, 2007 @ 16:22But my main point is that I would like to have no match winners at all in my side and still stay top of the table. I laugh at myself after saying this- “I am feeling better than when we had Henry in the team.” Because, I never thought I would say this two months earlier.
I like Rafa too and respect what he’s doing, but why should we settle for things being good enough? Liverpool have the potential to do better, Rafa has the potential to do better.
September 28th, 2007 @ 16:36Liverpool-torres,gerrard,manutd-ronaldo,rooney,tevez.arsenal-fabregas.chelsea-drogba,lampard
September 28th, 2007 @ 17:13A matchwinner to my mind is someone who can be consistently relied upon to turn the tide of a match on their own, either through the ability to provide one off moments of brilliance that result in goals or the allround quality to completely control a games flow. Liverpool have two match winners Gerrard and Torres, the rest are no more than solid players. Babel may be in a few years, 7 years ago Kewell was one but now hes poo. I cant understand why all the Liverpool fans are going all defensive, being a matchwinner isnt even completely correlated with a players ability. Alonso has an indesputably more well rounded and tidy game as a CM than gerrard does, yet it is gerrard who Liverpool depend on.
Arsenal (my team) more so than any other team in the league has the ability to outplay there opposition and control games. They were bettered maybe twice all last year (less than anyone other team and even better than our invincibles) but finished streets behind the top two. Why? Because we had no matchwinners show up, Henry was shit and RVP got injured just as he was starting to look like one. Its changing this year, Hleb and adebayor are starting to grow and RVP and Rosicky undoubtedly have the potential, but for now our only one is Fabregas. If the rest step up I personally think we will win the league but for now thats a big if.
Manu have Ronaldo, Rooney and Scholes who all played consistently well last season which was what won them the League. Giggs should also be included but hes starting to get past it, Tevez aswell. I still think when the first three I mentioned arent firing Man U look average.
Chelsea have Drogba, Essien, Lampard (another matchwinner with a less than stellar allround game), and Ballack if hes used properly, Robben was also one. I wouldnt write them off yet.
Its also quite interesting to see that both Real and Barca now have arouind 6 or 7 int their squads now
September 28th, 2007 @ 17:49you fogot saha, and nani
September 28th, 2007 @ 18:24Saha and Nani? get real
September 28th, 2007 @ 18:30Just to make a quick comment on the last part with Saha and Nani.
Saha is obviously a potential matchwinner when fit, but a matchwinner may have to be fit more often than Saha.
Nani scored the decider against Spurs and has had 2 assists from corners in 2 other 1-0 victories… does that qualify him as matchwinner… I don’t know, but the potential is surely there.
In Man Utd there’re Rooney, Ronaldo and Tevez imo, and I think it’s about time we asked a different question in this debate:
How many matchwinners can one team have? I’d say 4 is maximum, since matchwinners tend to be attacking players. So saying the Real Madrid and Barcelona have 6-7 each is just BS… they’re not even close.
About Liverpool. They have 2, and I don’t even care to mention their names. The problem with the rotation is (as is Ahmed’s point) that you’ll eventually drop points, if you rotate your matchwinners too much. Matchwinners need to play, and they need to play from start as often as they possibly can.
To comment on Fash’s comment on why Torres didn’t play against Birmingham: it had nothing to do with the physical game against Porto. Torres is more than capable of dealing with that. It had to do with one of Torres’ few weak areas – that he doesn’t play too well on little space. In other words… he needs space. Rafa felt Kuyt and Voronin were better at creating space for themselves, and therefore he chose them. To me that is being over-tactical.
September 28th, 2007 @ 19:14lil luis garcia was a match winner!
September 28th, 2007 @ 19:16No offence meant to anyone but I have seen only two match-winners(during their prime) in the entire world, Diego Maradona and Zinedine Zidane…………..
September 28th, 2007 @ 19:22Tomas, I meant 6 or 7 in each squad not team, Im not that daft.
September 28th, 2007 @ 20:36I think a match winner is a person who inspires the team not just one match a season but constantly.
Reina: when he kept drogba quiet and When he saved the first penalty against chelsea last season in the shoot out our players were inspired to the final
Carragher: Last season when i saw him knock the ball away from samuel Eto (in my opinion the best striker in the world) it was brillant carragher does this ever season the tackles he makes are worth atleast 200 goals!
Gerrard: My favourite player since i was 10 and everyone knows about this guy!
Torres: really fun to watch and his incredible speed changes games!
Finnan and Riise are another very underated players but i dont think Riise is that good anymore.
September 28th, 2007 @ 21:53had to add in my own humble opinion.. my thinking is that a matchwinner win matches by scoring goals or providing that special bit of invention or inspiration. (lets face it defenders do not get the credit they should get)
Liverpool – only Gerrard, Torres.
(kuyt, voronin, crouch are crap, alonso mascherano carragher are good but not matchwinners, reina is decent)
Chelsea – Drogba, Lampard
Arsenal – Fabregas, van Persie
Man Utd – Rooney, Ronaldo and Carragher (star player for Utd , record holder for most number of own goals scored against Utd)
To be honest, Liverpool looked like mounting an assault on the title till Rafa started his weird habits of tinkering. Its true u rotate your players to get them in optimum shape for the final stages of the season. BUT. just a question. What if Liverpool doesnt make it for the final stages? If they rotate so much in the early stages, the smart money is on Arsenal and Utd to slug it for the league. While Pool gets another chance at the Champions League since they are already out of the league running by then. (HAHA)
September 28th, 2007 @ 22:21kamy, garcia was definetly one, iqnadirshah, maradona and zidane were match winners, but not the only ones. sometimes you have a good player but not a legend who can cange matches. solsjkaer was one of them…
the four teams’ mactch winners are: Rooney, Ronaldo (man utd), lampard (chelsea), fabregas (arsenal), gerrard, torres? (liverpool)
September 28th, 2007 @ 22:28hobtuse this is why we really want league glory to prove arrogant fans like you wrong
September 28th, 2007 @ 23:30and why am i arrogant? ?? just stating of opinions (lol)
till date, Liverpool is still the team leading in terms of major league honours with 18. but how many for the past 17 years?? zero if i m right with my facts. we are catching up.
the pool squad this year is easily better than what they had over the last couple of years. but i would still say the team doesnt have what it takes to challenge for the league. the league rewards consistency. not consistently changing ur starting XI.
Carragher despite his glorious past as an undercover Utd player, has evolved into an outstanding centre back. Pool has to first sort out a really settled XI. Voronin is third-class (for evidence, check out his Ukraine and Bayer Leverkusen record). Kuyt is an overpriced construction worker with biceps to flex. I think Akinbiyi can work as hard as him for cheap.
Torres is class but the reason Rafa gave for dropping him at the weekend was really crap. Guess Torres will only start at Anfield against Arsenal and Utd since only these two teams attempt to attack at Anfield (and quite unsuccessfully too)
I say. Play your best team most of the time. So that there can be no hiding between complaints about rotation.
September 28th, 2007 @ 23:48Torres and Gerrard are the match winners for ‘Pool. Carragher is a brilliant player, but he won’t win you matches, he’ll ensure that you don’t lose them
. As said, Babel has the potential to do so in a few years (have always regarded him as a bit of a headless chicken though) and Voronin has the habit of popping up to surprise people. One to watch in the future is Lucas Leiva, the newly signed Brazilian midfielder; great things are expected of him. 
September 29th, 2007 @ 00:52hobtuse thats not what you said the first time but that Benitez will do everything he can to win the title he isnt doing this because he belives it will work in the long run.
Yes it is annoying the way he has fait in lower par players like kewel and Crouch but if he believes in them then so do i
September 29th, 2007 @ 01:50sorry my first line had some sarcasim in it… computers suck at this
September 29th, 2007 @ 01:50Well to tell you the truth im quite a fan of Benitez’s rotation, although it ends up cancelling out the intended purpose fairly often. Theres no doubt Liverpool finish the league well(although so do others), and they do seem fresher than most, but there was no need to drop Torres when he was playing well. Voronin and Kuyt no doubt are better than any of Birminghams players and the team was good enough to win, but it would have been easier to rest Torres in an easier home game and played him for this, and since Stevie G isn’t playing as well as normal and Babel can’t be expected to win games for Liverpool there was always the posibility of Liverpool not winning if Birmingham defended well. By the way I agree with hobtuse(slightly) about kuyt, he’s good and he scores goals and trys hard, but I don’t think I’d want him in my team, nor would I want Crouch, at all! He was never worth 7m and before anyone says anything about him being able to score goals, he gets ALOT of chances and misses a fair amount too, mainly because when Crouch plays they sometimes try and base their game around him.
September 29th, 2007 @ 02:44And MDH, if you’re gonna say get real when Saha and Nani are called ‘match winners’,(Saha is, Nani has been so far although judging on about 6 appearances is stupid, but its true he looks like he will be one, as does Babel and (possibly) Adebayor, although I think that people are over-reacting after him scoring a few goals) Then you should “get real” if you really believe Hleb and Rosicky will win more matches than Nani and Saha…
this discussion sucks anyway. teams shouldnt rely on “matchwinners” they should have an entire team who play together, to give a well deserved victory.
September 29th, 2007 @ 07:24to be honest jason, that lucas fella is gonna be a guaranteed flop. with gerrard, mascherano, alonso, sissoko in front of him at his favoured centre midfield position. that lucas gonna get shifted to the flanks.
September 29th, 2007 @ 08:10[...] Another point raised about Liverpool are their amount of match winners; yes, everyone knows about Fernando Torres and Steven Gerrard but do they have any other players capable of turning a game at any moment? Read and debate here. [...]
September 29th, 2007 @ 10:52The match winners r TORRES, KUYT, GERRARD, BENAYOUN, ALONSO and MASCHERANO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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IS TTTTTHHHHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEEEE BBBBBEEEEESSSSSSTTTTTT!!!
AAAAAAAAAAAAA HHHHHHHEEEEEEEEEAAAAAVVVVVVVVVYYYYYYYYYY
TTTTTTTTTTEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAMMMMMMMMMMMMM.
November 12th, 2007 @ 00:11Manchester United is arguably the most popular football club in the world, with over 50 million supporters worldwide;average attendances at the club have been higher than any other team in English football for all but six seasons since 1964-65.
The club is also one of the most successful in English football; for over twenty years, since the 1986-87 season, they have won 18 major honours, which is more than any other Premier League club.They are the Premier League’s reigning champions, and have won the Premier League/Football League 16 times. In 1968, they became the first English club to win the European Cup, beating S.L. Benfica 4—1, and they won a second European Cup in 1999. They also hold the record for the most FA Cup titles with 11.
Manchester United match-winners:Crsitiano Ronaldo,Wayne Rooney,Paul Scholes & Louis Saha(when he’s fit).
Chelsea-Didier Drogba,Frank Lampard & Michael Essien & Petr Cech.
Arsenal-Alexander Hleb,Cesc Fabregas,RVP & Emmanuel Adebayor.
Liverpool-Jamie Carragher,Stevie G & Fernando Torres.
December 3rd, 2007 @ 06:03The match winners are as follows
Reina, Arbeloa, Finnan, Carragher, Hypia, Agger, Aurelio, Riise, Pennant, Benyoun, Gerrard, Sissoko, Lucas, Mascherano, Alonso, Kewell, Babel, Crouch, Torres, Kuyt, Voronin
does are the players that win LFC matches
December 3rd, 2007 @ 10:12i don’t agree. when lfc faced brum, they were in a slip of form( similar 2 mau losing 2 bolton).
i remember the same thing in 2006( not sure about the date when we drew with brum @ home n went 2 trash thwm 7-0 in the fa cup.
match-winners:
torres, gerrard, crouch, kewell, benayoun, babel, lucas( in terms of goals). definitely not a one-man team.
of course there is defensive duties which let u win games( remember that arsenal side which scored 4 goals but took in 3? until their attack ran out of juice n left the title 2 manu) n occasional goal from hyppia.
so, real match winner: the team n teamspirit.
December 3rd, 2007 @ 16:32