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United Rumours & Truth about Glazer's from a Fan's Point of View

19 posts - Started 1 year ago by Raed - Latest reply from fosterfirst -
  • poll: How do you feel about the Glazers?
    don't care as long as United keep winning : (4 votes)
    40 %
    hate them - they've crippled United with debt : (4 votes)
    40 %
    love them - they've crippled United with debt : (2 votes)
    20 %

    1. Raed
      Raed

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      Posted 1 year ago #

      A post I put up on this blog recently (scroll down until you find a picture of a rather female looking Ronaldo on crutches) has provoked a long list of argumentative comments. Essentially the debate as to whether the Glazers have been good or bad for United is still raging and so I though we should have it all out in the open....

      As far as I am concerned it is black and white. They have been all bad. I can barely find a good thing to say. And I find that the good things people do have ot say is usually either things others at the club have acheived at the club despite them, or is just mis-informed.

      Of course the club has done fantastically since they took over- 2 league titles and a European Cup is simply beyond our wildest dreams. However, did the Glazers help or hinder?

      Rumour number one - the Glazers have invested millions of pounds and the signings purchased with their money helped win trophies.

      Truth - Any money United have spent on players has not come from the Glazers, it is borrowed money from banks that still has to be paid back. And it is the fans who pay it back with ridiculous ticket price increases or 50 minute waits to get through to the ticket office on expensive phone lines as the staff have all been sacked to save a few bucks. The Glazers are also struggling with their debt payments, putting the whole future of the club at risk. Last year United announced record profits, but all except £3m left the club (from another company called Red Football Ltd) to pay back some of the interest. So United made £3m in the last last year despite having won the league and without hardly spending a penny on players (Nani, Anderson and Tevez are yet to be paid for and Smith, Rossi etc all brought funds in) and still barely broke even. If we spend money on players and don't win trophies the finances will look dangerous worrying, especially with banks panicking over the credit crunch and AIG in serious financial trouble.

      Rumour number two - The Glazers have spent more on players than the club could have done as a plc.

      Truth - By being taken off the stock exchange United have saved about around £40,000 a year by not having to print annual reports (so the fans are even more in the dark now than before) and around £10m in share dividends. But instead of share dividends our interest payments are over £64m a year. Thats £54m extra a year leaving the club than it did before - hardly good for investing money in players. The first summer of the Glazers we made a profit- taking Keano off the wage bill and selling Obi Mikel and Ruud more than paid for Carrick, and last year's players have not been fully paid for by any means yet. The sales of Smith and Rossi provided £15m of the money we did pay upfront.

      Rumour number three - United's ticket prices are still reasonable.

      Truth - under the Glazers a system has been introduced called the Automatic Cup Scheme. This forces all season ticket holders (most of the tickets in the ground) to sign up to a direct debit to purchase all home cup tickets. That means supporters, many of whom could barely afford 19 league games at the prices the Glazers have introduced, had to sign up to another 8-10 games a year at these new prices. Most of the seats in the main stands are now £44 (£49 for non members if you cannot afford a season ticket and want to chose to apply game by game) which works out at around £1200 a year including an average amount of cup games. More than most seats at Arsenal or Chelsea. Baring in mind we have the largest stadium and the highest revenue from performance related payments (ie winning trophies) surely we should have the cheapest tickets in the league?

      Rumour number four - the Glazers care!

      Truth - as soon as the Glazers came in at the club they cut the largest supporters trust in the country (over 30,000 members) and the independent supporters association out of the loop. They were not permitted to have representatives at the 'fans forum' (which discusses important issues such as content of the now very expensive matchday programme or the flavour pies on sale) and cut of all official communication. What business/ football club does not talk to its most loyal fans? As for explaining the debt, the Glazers gave one pre-recorded and scripted interview on MUTV shortly after buying the club in which their only comment was 'debt means different things to different people.' Well. in Manchester it means it needs to be paid back.

      In summary - they take more money out of our club than ever has been taken out before, supporters are putting more in than ever before, they have no intention of speaking to supporters, ticket prices are getting worse every season even compared to other clubs, and when the debt needs to be paid back the team and supporters will all suffer. Should things look even bleaker, the whole club is in jeopardy with 9 times more debt than Leeds ever had and sponsors such as Audi and Vodafone already walking away. The Glazers should be thanking the lord for us loyal fans and Fergie/ the players who have masked their behavious so far by papering over the cracks, but unfortunately the future is not so bright should they keep running up the debt and not paying it back.

      I love my football club with all my heart and travel the world watching the lads. I stood in Moscow last year with tears running down my face as we lifted the European Cup. But nothing can let me accept or forgive the Glazers throwing our club ito uncertainty and debt for their own personal gain. Lucikly the future may be alright due to a bunch of fans doing more than their bit to look more long term - http://www.joinmust.org

      Oli Winton
      -----------------
      http://timesonline.typepad.com/fanzine_fanzone/2008/07/the-glazers--go.html

    2. bobotonto
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      Posted 1 year ago #

      Football is a business, and the Glazers run it as such. I'd rather the club was run like Barcelona or the Green Bay Packers in American football, but the tooth fairy is AWOL. The last thing any Gooner fans ought to be doing is pointing the finger at United and talking about financial malfeasance. No club has more contempt for its own fans than Arsenal. A family outing to the Emirates will cost at least 150% more than the already heavy hit you'll take at Old Trafford. Arsenal are partially owned by an American corporate raider and a Russian wheeler/dealer with ties to the sleeziest connections in pornography, prostitution, money laundering and the arms trade. All of which is totally acceptable to the Arsenal board of directors because they believe fiscal responsibility comes first. Arsenal are a fine model for other clubs if you believe in the simple tenet of buy low/sell high. They shrewdly run an academy that sends an army of scouts throughout former French colonies in Africa looking for talent and run it in a ruthless manner where the bottom line is always profit profit profit. Nothing wrong with that, is there? The Gooners are not Communists!!! But, in the end, what does the club have to show beyond a big shiny new sterile park? Arsenal play nice pretty football. They pay their bills on time and have become the World's biggest feeder club for the likes of Barcelona and A.C. Milan. Last, but not least, when did they last win anything? Is it okay to be a beautiful loser? Just once I'd like to hear from a fan of Wigan Athletic or Everton or whoever about whether they think it's worth getting in debt to win.

      I STILL MISS NOBBY & BOBBY!!!
    3. Raed
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      Posted 1 year ago #

      While Bob your dig at Arsenal Football is bit of a pathetic rant of no value, I have to remind you that the article was written by a United fan at the Times blog (writer and link given below incase you missed out). If you have any issues or would like to mention any mistakes in the article I suggest you contact the author.

      Moving on. Yes, season tickets at the Emirates are the most expensive in the country, but you have to bear in mind, it covers both Domestic and European Cup home matches. Where United/Chelsea/Liverpool all charge extra for these games.

      The reason why I put up this article is because a lot of United fans seems to think that the Glazer's are good businessmen and are running the club very well. That notion is not true and whislt many fans disagree, some are actually willing to see facts.

      Now, why don't you talk about your feelings about the way Glazer's ran your club?

      If you have anything to say against Arsenal I suggest you make a new topic in the Arsenal sub-forum. That shouldn't be difficult to find out now should it or do I need to give you directions?

    4. bobotonto
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      Posted 1 year ago #

      Raed: You're the one who put the article up in the United forum, not me. I have no personal axe to grind with Gooner fans. Gooners, I love you: You are beautiful losers! The greatest feeder club ever! Keep up the good work! My point is that I have been a United fan since 1958 and will be a United fan, no matter what. The Edwards family/Magnier & Magnusson/The Glazer Family: All of them will come and go and I'll be a United lover till I die. Thank you for reading the New York Times and offering up your noble gift.

    5. Raed
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      Posted 1 year ago #

      Well Bob, nobody questioned your loyalty as a United fan here. As for Arsenal being a feeder club, I will quote Ahmed Bilal here when I say, Arsenal are a club that brings in the best young talent in the world from other clubs and quite often manages to keep players through their best years.

      As to why I put up this article, well you should have read my reply carefully:

      The reason why I put up this article is because a lot of United fans seems to think that the Glazer's are good businessmen and are running the club very well. That notion is not true and whislt many fans disagree, some are actually willing to see facts.

      Now why don't you use you intelligence to tell us what your take on the Glazer ownership is instead of useless Arsenal banter?

      Hypothetically speaking, if Ronaldo were sold for a large sum, where should you think that money be spent?

      On paying back debts that never seem to go away? Or re-invest in the squad and keep the debt as it is?

      One correction in the article, by the way, is that Carlos Tevez's transfer fee has been paid now though through which funds that remains to be seen.

    6. manutdfan
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      Posted 1 year ago #

      So it's like Glazer had not been investing in United's future though...

      mufan's utter lack of knowledge of English makes his joke all the funnier. Haha!!
    7. bobotonto
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      Posted 1 year ago #

      Raed,
      Using your 'intelligence' you rationalize your attempt at shit stirring thus:

      'The reason why I put up this article is because a lot of United fans seems to think that the Glazer's are good businessmen and are running the club very well. That notion is not true and whislt many fans disagree, some are actually willing to see facts.'

      And I replied about United owners: 'All of them will come and go and I'll be a United lover till I die.'

      We have no say in who owns either of our clubs. So far, the Glazers have made their payments on time. What is your criteria for 'good businessmen'? They may not be nice people, but they're not involved in human trafficking and the selling of arnaments like your biggest shareholder or mass murder like Thaksin at Manchester City. Why are you so civic-minded about what the Glazers do with the Ronaldo cash or which cheque paid for Tevez. Once again: Thanks for your concern. Now, have a Paxyl, a pint and a fag, then go home to the Arsenal forum.

    8. Ahmed Bilal
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      Posted 1 year ago #

      Gotta agree with bobtonto on this one Raed - thanks for the concern, you have your own forum now, go there! :P

    9. Raed
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      Posted 1 year ago #

      I'm not concerned Ahmed. :lol:

      It's useless agruing with Bob. However, what's your take on all of this mate?

    10. Ahmed Bilal
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      Posted 1 year ago #

      No seriously, buzz off :)

      w.r.t the Glazers, we KNOW the debt is a bad thing. we KNOW that the success of the squad is based on what we had before in terms of playing talent (whether we would have gone for all 4 players without Glazers, I don't know...).

      However, a few things are misunderstood:

      Sponsors:

      One, AIG came AFTER the Glazers, and are one of (if not THE) biggest shirt sponsorships in football. Vodafone didn't 'go' - United went for bigger fish. Audi did not leave because United came under debt.

      In other words, the debt doesn't make United less of an attraction to the sponsors. On the other hand, Glazers' financial connections in the US plus their sports business background means that they'll be out to squeeze more money from sponsors.

      Do Glazers Care?

      As soon as United got taken over that question becomes irrelevant and moronically self-serving. Apparently for the owners to care they must involve fans in all decisions? I'm sorry, I'll go with Ferguson on this one - in his interview on Sky Sports in May, he said that the fans, while important, weren't in charge of the club and that specifically, the manager ran the team while the board ran the club as a business.

      The Glazers don't care for fancy PR (a la Liverpool). They've left the bullshitting (we are better for United than those with more money) to Arsenal. They came in and got on with improving United as a business off the pitch while Fergie continued with his job of improving United on the pitch.

      They care about United. United isn't made up of fans, it's a football club and by extension a business. They care about that, which is all I need.

      Some people can't get over the debt. It's there to stay, and unless United fans can come up with 2 billion pounds to buy out the Glazers (who are unlikely to sell even at that amount), they need to shut the hell up and get on with supporting the club. Bitching about it doesn't matter.

      Yes, the club has to pay for the takeover. It SUCKS. We get it. Now we can either do something about it (and the only realistic thing that can be done to fix things is to wipe out the debt), or we can get on with it.

      As you can see, I've chosen to 'get on with it'. I'm not a Glazers fan, but I do see that as business people they have made all the right choices so far - in fact, tell me one bad decision that the Glazers have taken *after* taking over United.

      Ticket prices? A lot of fuss was created but in reality fans will still pay. Also, afaik the club has committed to reviewing the pricing structure for next season, so we'll see how that works out. Again, the ticket prices will hurt fans but ultimately they don't hurt the club.

      It's not about us, it's about the club. Even the fans aren't bigger than United.

      Having said that, if Glazers screw the fans over tickets once or twice more, there are going to be riots :) Most of the outcry against the tickets pricing scheme has been from those looking for anything to throw at teh Glazers out of anger at the debt.

      This was a long rant...hope you got the main points :)

    11. bobotonto
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      Posted 1 year ago #

      Thanks Ahmed! Such debt is awful to contemplate; however, the Glazers are shrewd operators, and they recognise, first and foremost, that winners make more money than losers and also-rans. One thing's for sure,their willingness to give Ferguson the nod to buy Vidic, Evra, Carrick, Anderson, Nani and Hargreaves at arguably inflated prices, has meant all the difference in a dog-eat-dog football world where owning a huge quality squad means everything. I also agree the bubble will burst with ticket prices if the Glazers try keelhauling the fans again next season. They need to have their world rocked a little bit by some demonstrations of fan power, I'll conjecture. I'm sure the corporate sponsors can manage to pay a lot more for their skyboxes, though.

    12. Ahmed Bilal
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      Posted 1 year ago #

      add a poll to this thread - please vote :)

    13. Ahmed Bilal
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      Posted 1 year ago #

      also, no one believes that united's ticket prices are reasonable or that glazers care. the investment bit is the only thing that needed clarification. building up false rumours to knock them down isn't 'writing' or 'journalism', it's called fishing for a reaction. Baiting, in other words.

    14. BD Condell
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      Posted 1 year ago #

      You've got to love the internet. Raed picks-up on a completely unsubstantiated
      article and takes it as gospel, to be used for his own sad purposes.
      Take the following extract:

      "Last year United announced record profits, but all except £3m left the club (from another company called Red Football Ltd) to pay back some of the interest. So United made £3m in the last last year despite having won the league and without hardly spending a penny on players (Nani, Anderson and Tevez are yet to be paid for and Smith, Rossi etc all brought funds in) and still barely broke even."

      I've invited the poster on the original site to explain his understanding of the difference between Cash Flow and profit and also to enlighten us on what he understands regarding player transfer fees vis-a-vis how they are handled in the Balance Sheet and how they flow to the Profit and Loss account, over what period.
      In the event that he can give a credible response I may take his point with more than just a pinch of salt but I'm afraid the above extract suggests ignorance on his part and consequentially undermines the credibility of his writings.

    15. Raed
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      Posted 1 year ago #

      Well Condell do share your response if any does come forth.

    16. fosterfirst
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      Posted 1 year ago #

      raed.......... leave you are not wanted here

      "I got a woody from seeing the lethal trident of Wazza" bobotonto
    17. manutdfan
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      Posted 1 year ago #

      So what about the Glazers???

    18. AhmedShah
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      Posted 1 year ago #

      They're not wanted too..

      YNWA=You'll Never Walk Alone=You'll Never Win Anything
    19. fosterfirst
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      Posted 1 year ago #

      i dont know. we have done decent with them here.


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