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English Football Is Not Dead

27 posts - Started 1 year ago by prodigyson - Latest reply from frankie -

  1. prodigyson
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    Posted 1 year ago #

    Watching the Champions League semi-finals second legs over the last couple of days has led me to re-evaluate the current state of English football and I wanted to put the case forward that things are perhaps not as bad as Trevor Brooking and others may have us believe.

    Admittedly, the English national team not qualifying for the European Football Chamionships is a major disappointment; and the national team have been consistently under-achieving for a while now. Is there not a danger though, that this disappointment has caused some to over-state the case that there has been a gradual deterioration in the standard of British football?

    For a moment, let us put national competitions to one side. It is apparent that for the majority of players, the honour of representing one’s country has lost some of its appeal in contrast to competing for a big club in competitions such as the Champion’s League. Many would argue that over the last decade or so, the Champions League has usurped the European Championships if not the World Cup as the showcase for the world’s most talented players.

    Is it not time then, for certain English clubs to get a pat on the back? Is it not a remarkable achievement that for two consecutive years, arguably our best three teams (Manchester United, Chelsea and Liverpool) have made it into the semi-finals of this competition?

    Many lament the fact that the Premiership is now populated with more foreign players than ever before and admittedly, they are certainly in abundance, adding some much-needed flair and skill to the three clubs mentioned. What so often seems to go overlooked though, is that playing alongside those players is a fairly good representation of the Best of British talent. What is also noticeable is that these players are not just making up the numbers; they are in the most part making up the backbone or spine of the team.

    Consider Manchester United’s 2nd leg against Barcelona. They had Ferdinand, supported ably by Brown playing centre back; Hargreaves supporting out of position at full-back; with Carrick and Scholes running the centre of the park. Giggs made a brief but accomplished appearance. If it weren’t for injury, Rooney would also have been putting it about upfront.

    How about the other finalists, Chelsea? John Terry at centre back is obviously a hugely influential player, as is Ashley Cole when he is on his game. Joe Cole never stops running and can turn a game around. Frank Lampard is known for his effort and determination and Sean Wright-Philips when utilised is capable of moments of pure magic.

    Even the defeated semi-finalists, Liverpool are not without their influential British contingent, with Gerrard and Carragher proving to be formidable opposition, and Pennant’s precocious talent. Let’s not forget Crouch either, joint 2nd top scorer in last season’s Champions League.

    For some reason, Arsenal, who for the most part seem to boycott British players are hardly worthy of a mention.

    Perhaps this evidence of British talent needs to be highlighted. OK so our players are not necessarily the most technically gifted or dazzling to watch, but they have grit and strength in abundance and these are characteristics that can win games, leagues and competitions.

    I for one do not think it is a bad thing that British players get the chance to play in the best domestic league in the world and if it attracts the best players form around the world, so much the better. We are showing in both the domestic league and Champions League that we are capable of competing with the best, and our young players will develop as they play and watch the best competitors of all races.

    I think the most disappointing thing about England not qualifying for the European Cup is that a large number of quality players, as well as a number with great potential will miss out playing for their country in a big competition. However, I believe our current crop of players have the potential to bounce back and will benefit from the prolonged kick up the behind that they have been receiving.

  2. fosterfirst
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    Posted 1 year ago #

    i agree. British players and teams are know for feirce rivalrys. If not for that, a rooney and lampard might be able to opperate together in the midfield.

    "I got a woody from seeing the lethal trident of Wazza" bobotonto
  3. soccerlenser
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    Posted 1 year ago #

    i agree. British players and teams are know for fierce rivalrys. If not for that, a Rooney and Lampard might be able to opperate together in the midfield.

    I truly agree with prodigyson and fosterfirst.

  4. SpiralArchitect
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    Posted 1 year ago #

    3 things...

    #1 - Giggs is WELSH! Get that straight. You're talking about 'England' here NOT 'Britain'.

    #2 - Yeah Arsenal don't have many English players. I suppose Theo Walcott is chopped liver to you eh? This is a player who went past 6 Liverpool players (including your 'famed' Carragher) to set up a great goal at Anfield. Expect to see more of him next season, playing to chants of 'pick him Fabio, pick him!'.

    #3 - Again i've noticed that you started talking about 'England' & then ended up talking about 'Britain'. Make your mind up up about what you want to focus on. Just because they live in the British Isles doesn't mean they can qualify to play for England.

  5. prodigyson
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    Posted 1 year ago #

    Well noticed Spiral. I was originally going to talk about British football, and then when I realised that all the players I was bigging up were pretty much English I thought best to amend the title. Yes, I am aware Giggs plays for Wales but on reflection he doesn’t sound very Welsh does he?

    I am also a big fan of Walcott but he is very much the token English player at Arsenal rather than part of a contingent would you not agree. Is it unrelated that as things stand, Arsenal are not enjoying the same success as Chelesea and Manchester Utd right now was my point.

    You started by saying you had 3 points, but two of them were virtually the same point so I’ll stop there. I’ll work on my nationalities – you work on your numeracy.

  6. Raed
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    Posted 1 year ago #

    So are you implying that Arsenal are not successful because they don't have English talent?

  7. prodigyson
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    Posted 1 year ago #

    I'm saying that it may be a factor. What do you put it down to?

  8. Raed
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    Posted 1 year ago #

    It maybe partially true. After Wenger's arrival the '98 & '02 doubles had some sort of English defense mainly in the form of Adams & Dixon in '98 (I don't remember much since I started supporting Arsenal after the '98 World Cup) & Adams was there in '02 along with Dixon who I believe didn't feature much. The Invincibles also had Sol Campbell & Cole in their defense.

    hmm interesting...

    This season's failure I would put on one game at best. The 4-0 at Old Trafford even though it was a second string Arsenal side it always hurts losing to ManU. This stopped the momentum. The Eduardo incident stopped Arsenal from regaining the momentum. Also owing to the fact that some bad decisions gone against us at crucial stages.

    However, I do believe that Arsenal has enough to lift Silverware next season given Hleb & Flamini stays, along with a couple of additions in defense. As everyone saw this season, it is not the problem with scoring or playing beautiful football...

  9. SpiralArchitect
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    Posted 1 year ago #

    prodigyson -

    My 3rd point was to re-emphasise the 1st point. You ended your post with sarcasm & failed to see i was being sarcastic too. What i was saying is that don't make the common mistake of taking nationalities lightly. And what the hell does that mean that Giggs doesn't 'sound' Welsh? What's a Welshman supposed to sound like? Are you one of those people who expect everyone to fit into the stereotype the world expects of them? You wanna start calling George Best 'English' now?

    I've been to the UK. I lived there for many years in Scotland, Wales & England. One of the worst things you can do in the British Isles is call a Scotsman or a Welshman English. There are still many people who take offense to that. The current Prime Minister of the UK is from Scotland. Do you see anyone in the media calling him English? Its like calling Korean people Japanese & lumping all people from East Asia as Chinese.

    And yes Walcott is our 'token' Englishman at Arsenal. So what? Not like the current crop of English greats have done anything worthwhile. Name the last competition they've done well at?

    Keep a watch out for our Arsenal youngsters - Henri Lansbury, Kieran Gibbs, Jack Wilshere etc coming out of the Arsenal academy. You'll see them in the cup games next season. Maybe they will provide the 'Next Revolution' in English football with the way they've been taught to do things. The current generation are useless on the international scene.

  10. prodigyson
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    Posted 1 year ago #

    God you go on don’t you? Yes national identity is important blah blah blah. I said I made a mistake. My initial aim was to highlight some of the notable achievements of British players within the champions League, which last time I looked was an international competition as opposed to domestic.

    My reason for initially wanting to include broad use of the word British was because there are other non-English players (two that spring to my mind are Roy Keane and Ryan Giggs but I daresay you may be able to recall some Arsenal players) who are not English but nevertheless worthy of acknowledgement for their performance in said competition over the last few years.

    The reason they got left in having adjusted the title was because I was under pressure from my wife to stop typing, having been out watching football for three hours, I was keeping her awake. Like you, she was becoming a bit of a nag. Can we move on now?

  11. SpiralArchitect
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    Posted 1 year ago #

    To continue with the nagging...

    'English football is not dead'.

    If you're talking about the Premier League, then yes there are lots of British players who are good. Always have been, always will be.

    If you're talking about the national team, you went way off topic here.

    Here endeth the nagging...for now.

  12. DubMANSaysOHYEAH
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    Posted 1 year ago #

    FAO MR Spiral Architect esq here's a couple of points why Arsenal will win nothing in current climate - Just a side bar from the forum title but it needs to be said

    This nonsense of "We play beautiful football" is bullshit and u Numpties r really startin to believe ur own hype-

    U play passin football against rubbish opposition - U've had to rely on set pieces & corners to score against the other top 4 teams & even with that only for defenders scoring for you against top teams U'b be battling for 5th at the moment

    Hleb & Flamini - "If u can keep them" - Shouldnt be a problem mate who'd want them?
    2 headless chickens who've done little or nothing since arrivin in the league running around kicking everything that moves & couldnt score if u gave them 10 penos each wit no keeper

    Adebayor DOES NOT score enough despite the 24 goals this season which is a complete false sense of security-
    He Scored 6 goals in a fortnight last September & 2 hattricks agaisnt Derby - He's failed to score in 19 games this season - which is horrendous for a top striker. Take out the 2 hattricks & the other flush 10days in Sept u realistically have a stiker who'll get 13/14 a season but neverhteless in true Arsenal style u'll see the total & believe the hype u've built up around another one of ur players. . .
    Ur managers vision to play Eboue every game & rest Walcott constantly is alarming
    Ur badly in need of Keeper, solid defence, dunno whats goin on with toure/galas, u need something in midfield Fabregas gets injured ur lost, u need a striker.

    Just to clarify ARSENAL DID NOT play a 2nd string team at Old Trafford when u were hammered 4nil so quit the horseshit of contantly sayin it so people wil believe it. Fabregas, Adebayor etc etc etc all played, UTD played without Ronaldo still hammered u

    So SPIRAL _ Some realisitc comments from now on & not the usual Arsenal Spin on why its not fair etc etc

  13. DubMANSaysOHYEAH
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    Posted 1 year ago #

    RAED - U can have a read to pal

    All u short of now boys is tellin us about ur wondeful Youth policy whcih consists of Arsenal scouts going around europe woth Big flappy poachers nets, takin everybody elses -

  14. AddictedtoMidtableFootball
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    Posted 1 year ago #

    English football is in good condition aside from the National team and the fault for the national teams failures lays with the FA/ Government. Bunch of old fools who have no knowledge of football and cannot put simple structures in place for (a) small clubs and (b) safe facilities for children after school and at w/ends.

    Our club teams are collectively the best in the world. Italian league is a total mess. Spanish league have even weaker squads than our own league with the exception of the big two. Portugal, Holland, Germany and France are substandard leagues.

    Re no's of foreigners in teams. I do not buy this arguement. In the late 70's onwards our leagues were swamped with Scottish, Irish and Weslh players (quality players it has to be said). It would be interesting to see the stats on %'s of squads back then to now.

    Re Youth systems. There is not one England team from the last 60 years (1966 included) that could boast as many brilliant players as we can at the moment. Ferdinand, Terry, A Cole, Gerrard, Lampard, J Cole and Rooney could walk in to most teams in the world, so surely our youth systems are doing okay. If a player is good enough he will rise the the surface.

    To be honest, the peopel who are suffering at the moment are the other home nations as the quality coming through is nothing like the 70's and 80's. And also, and as a Charlton fan more importantly, is the lower tier clubs. Premier squads are so large now that they take the best Championship players and leave them sitting on the bench. Aside from West Brom, there is not one club this season that had a good team and played anywhere near decent football. Players like Marcus Bent, Andy Reid, Stephen Hunt, Michael Copra, to name a few are nowhere near Premiership class and would in the past be found plying their trade in the Championship.

    Anyway, the Premiership is the best league in the world and I feel blessed that we get to see the likes of Torres, Ronaldo, Fabregas and Ballack in the Premiership.

    J

  15. manutdfan
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    Posted 1 year ago #

    Top 5 of WORLD CLASS leagues:
    1. Premier League
    2. Spanish La Liga
    3. Italian Serie A
    4. French Orange Ligue 1
    5. German Bundesliga

    mufan's utter lack of knowledge of English makes his joke all the funnier. Haha!!
  16. Raed
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    Posted 1 year ago #

    @ DubMANSaysOHYEAH: there are people who you reason with & there are those (Idiots who drag who down to their level and beat you with experience) who you don't reason with.

    you are the latter.

  17. aussiegunner
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    Posted 1 year ago #

    DubMANSaysOHYEAH sounds like hes a bit jealous that arsenal are going to dominate next year. we will have a strong contingent of english playes. the majority of our youth and reserve teams are english, and we will have a few english players on the field against sunderland.
    one of the reasons arsenal dont have to many english players is cause the players price themselves out of it.they think that because they are english that they can be paid a massive amount of money, the only people who can get paid massive amounts of money for doing nuthin are brazilians
    next year arsenal will have a larger number of english players, and we will win nearly everything.

  18. DubMANSaysOHYEAH
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    Posted 1 year ago #

    Well said RAED -

    When someone points out & proves that ur an idiot simply try & type big words to make urself look intelligent & waffle away about not being dragged down to their level-

    Thats why Arsenal finished in third - Who was proved right me or you???

    Did Arsenal win the league, cup, Carling Cup, Uefa Cup qualify for Champs League final - NO NO NO and em NO

    Stick wit ur nonsense of "Beautiful Football" keep clocking up those loser medals & Muppets like you keep paying more money than anyone else to watch a team at home who'll win nothing

    AUSSIEGOONER

    Great comment - Arsenal will win nearly everything next yr - They didnt even nearly win anything this year so how u think they will "win nearly everything" seein as all they've done so far is get rid of players is beyond me-

    keep on dreaming Losers - Only time U will ever win anything is when Utd Slip up -

    U feed from the scraps of our table
    LOL :D :) :(

  19. aussiegunner
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    Posted 1 year ago #

    DubMANSaysOHYEAH while it is rue arsenal didnt win anything this year, im pretty sure i was talking about next year, and if you want to say that arsenal went bad this year, you just have to look at the fact that nearly everybody said arsenal were going to come around 10th or 11th where for most of the season were being tipped to win alot of the major competitions.
    Man utd on the other hand were expected to win the league by a huge amount, but only ended up winnin by two points. i admit that in some seasons 87 would have been a whitewash but in this season it was just enough. so i put it to you that man utd has had a below expectations season, and arsenal is the team to raise the most eyebrows, and that arsenal should be the team to win nearly everything next season.
    i also say that the only reason that you won the title this year is because arsenal had there momentum lost when eduardo broke his ankle, this was a slip up in arsenals campaign so i say the only reason man u won anything is because arsenal slipped up.
    and finally as far as im concered we havent gotten rid of anyone but lehman, with flamini choosing to leave, and hleb not left yet. arsenal have also aquired ben arfa. arsenal will be the most dominate club in europe next year and that is quite obvious.

  20. DubMANSaysOHYEAH
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    Posted 1 year ago #

    Tell ya something Aussie

    The drugs where u live r top notch - Ur the typical delusional Arsenal fan that despite winnin fuck all in the last 20 yrs compared to Utd U still shite away bout next yr next yr we'll do this that & the other -

    Show us a link where ANYBODY predicted Arsenal finishing in 10th??? U Arsenal Retards keep sayin that 2 try & convince urself that ur season was really a success where in actual fact it was a total flop YET AGAIN- Humiliated by Utd in FA Cup, Destroyed by Spurs in Carling Cup, Out of the league run in 2months before it was over, Champions League well nothing new there knocked out as usual

    Arsenal slipped up to let Utd win the title - R U Actually on Crack - Arsenal were never contenders, Fabregas's goals put them in contention early on but that was it -

    This Eduardo bullshit that is continuously waffled about - Eduardo was a carling cup player who'd played 5 yes FIVE Full games before his injury wit 10 games to go & all of a sudden cos of his injury he was a vital pivotal part of Arsenal's plans & only for his injury we'd've won the league -

    Seriously delusional Arsenal fans r whats wrong wit ur club - U all believe ur own shit from the manager to the mentally challenged fans

    U werent in the running for ANYTHING this yr & now u claim ur gonna dominate Europe because u bought Ben Arfa -

    Stick to that delusional ideology & everybody will be laughing at u AGAIN next yr while ur whinging bout playing beautiful football (against horseshit opposition) everybody else will be worrying bout winning stuff including Liverpool while ur tryin to fight off Villa / Everton for 4th spot . . . . . . . .

  21. frankie
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    Posted 1 year ago #

    There is very little separating the Big Four sides. As I posit on another post in this Forum, what separated the sides from each other this season basically came down to the results in the head-to-heads against each other, as they each performed roughly the same against the rest of the EPL.

    Arsenal and Chelsea were very close to winning the league. A different result in one game (and one game only) would have given Arsenal the title. The game? Against United at Old Trafford when Arsenal let slip a 1 goal lead in the second half. Had Arsenal held on, they would have topped the league with 86 points, Chelsea would have been second on 85 and United third with 84.

    Fine margins separate the teams. I think the ultimate difference between Arsenal and United this season is that United had a more resilient mentality. They did not often lose from winning positions; particularly not against their closest rivals. Arsenal, on the other hand, did it all too often with the finishing line tantalisingly in sight(against Chelsea and United in the EPL and against Liverpool in the Champions League).

    It will be interesting to see how Arsenal respond next season. Unfortunately for Arsenal, United and Chelsea are not going to stand still this summer. United, in particular, are likely to be more formidable next year, provided they recruit a class centre forward. There is also talk of them being interested in Micah Richards. Now that is a player who would also suit Arsenal down to the ground, but Wenger won't put all his available cash on capturing one player for the sort of money Richards would cost. But United recognise that if you want to buy English you'll pay inflated prices: Rooney, Carrick, Ferdinand and Hargreaves cost enormous sums. But in terms of the returns for United, they were worth every penny. Carrick two seasons, two titles. Hargreaves one season, one title. Ferdinand 6 seasons, 3 titles. Rooney 4 seasons, 2 titles.

    Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool and United have brought real quality to the EPL and Europe this season. We should value each of them.

    As a supporter of the England team, I would like to see Theo Walcott really push on domestically next season. As he gets physically stronger and more tactically aware, he should develop into an exceptional player under Wenger's tutelage.

    Arsenal might also do even better with one or two British players at the heart of their defence (Dunne, Richards etc.). In the final analysis, Arsenal probably fell short this season for want of a Tony Adams, Rio Ferdinand or John Terry in central defence. Cussed English defenders of stout heart; men to hold the side together in situations of acute stress. That was the fault line. It will have to be corrected if Arsenal are to push on.

  22. DubMANSaysOHYEAH
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    Posted 1 year ago #

    Agree wit ya on the Walcott thang . . . .

    As I'm not an England but nonetheless cannot understand why oh why Arsehole Whinger persisted wit Eboue who at the height of his career was a very poor right back & is now a laughing stock- But he was consistently Awful/Rubbish/Horrendous yet started almost every game & Walcott made MASSIVE impacts when he came on- Albeit wit a touch of headless chicken running a lot of the but that'll change wit more games nothing puts a team on the back foot like an attacker wit pace-
    Even wit no skill whatsoever if someone can kick past defenders & beat them for pace it's a massive threat

  23. manutdfan
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    Posted 1 year ago #

    Let's back to the topic...

  24. nelson
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    Posted 1 year ago #

    In the top 3 teams their best players are english there the ones who they relie on most. Even Troughout the league
    Expect wes Brown


    Keep Right On To The End Of The Road
  25. TiredandWeary
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    Posted 1 year ago #

    we have good players it is just that no body gives them enough time to progress and if they arn't amazing like rooney then they will only get a game or 2 to prove themselves and then farmed out on loan and never to be seen in the prem again.

    KRO Blue boys
  26. prodigyson
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    Posted 1 year ago #

    Just to milk the point one more time, we had an all-Premiership Champions League Final last night...nothing remarkable there you might say...until you consider that 10 of the 22 starting players (45%) were English. That's not a bad advert for the English game now is it?

  27. frankie
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    Posted 1 year ago #

    Just to milk the point one more time, we had an all-Premiership Champions League Final last night...nothing remarkable there you might say...until you consider that 10 of the 22 starting players (45%) were English. That's not a bad advert for the English game now is it?

    Prodigyson:

    Agreed. Moral for Arsenal and Liverpool? Get a stronger English base. Liverpool regularly started last season with just 2 English players; Arsenal usually with none. Manchester United and Chelsea over the past 4 seasons have shared the EPL title between themselves, and for the past three seasons have been first and second and have now contested the first all EPL CL final.

    If Liverpool and Arsenal are not careful, we'll be talking not so much about a Big Four, but more about the "Bigger Two" (United and Chelsea) and the "Dominant One" (United). The fact that SAF has had major success with a strong English base over a 15 year period demonstrates that English players if given the chance at Liverpool and Arsenal could do well. Come on Benitez and Arsene, give more English boys a chance!


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