Evra vs Heinze / Saha vs Ruud - a Manchester United fan speaks out
This is a rant - as such it is personal and one-sided. I still like Saha for the same qualities that make him a United darling, and I’m partial to Evra too. However, that should have no bearing on our assessment of players.
Flair has won more fans than sheer effectiveness has - just ask Arsenal. You can have too much of flair, and it becomes showboating, but you can never have enough effectiveness.
And besides, flair never won a football game, goals do. And after all the runs and dribbling and movement off the ball and the pretty passing and the overzealous tackling has been done and dusted with, if you can’t block goals at one end and put them away at the other, you will still lose.
But try telling the fans that, and you’ll get the usual “Beautiful football is great to watch” routine.
Let’s take Manchester United’s example (because this is about them and not about Arsenal, in case you got misled by the beautiful game comment) - Players like Louis Saha and Patrice Evra - both decent players - are celebrated as top players by the fans. Fans have notoriously short memories and even weaker opinions, but the ease with which fans have abandoned Ruud and Heinze and move on to support Saha and Evra against those two is depressing.
Saha is, at best, a player fit for Manchester United’s bench. Evra is a poor defender and not that great going forward either.
And yes, I watch the games, so I’ve seen them play - let’s get beyond the “you don’t know what you’re talking about because you don’t see them play” bullshit.
Why is Saha playing? Passing, pace, good in the air, movement off the ball?
He’s a support striker at best. His finishing is average, and for a striker that was slated to lead Manchester United’s goals charge this season that’s not good enough.
Saha scores goals because he gets 10 chances made for him and 3-4 that he creates himself, and manages to put away 2 or 3 - on a good day. Manchester United’s approach play - built on Scholes, Giggs, Ronaldo and Carrick - helps Saha get that many chances.
I’d take Ruud and Saha or Ruud and Rooney over Saha and Rooney any day. Why? Because you need at least one quality finisher, and Ruud gave us that.
He’s gone now, so we need a new striker - a finisher, rather than another support striker. Will Rossi fit the bill? Hopefully he will.
Why is Evra playing? Pace, excellent going forward?
He is a left back for crying out loud. Ashley Cole, Wayne Bridge - these guys are far better defenders than Evra, and Bridge is better going forward too. You don’t need an overly attacking left back if your left winger has some pace, and IMO Evra plays mainly because Giggsy HAS to play, and his slower pace and tendency to cut inside leaves space outside that needs to be exploited.
Evra likes going forward, so he fits the bill. Heinze is your traditional defender, hard in the tackle, decent in the air and always aware of his defensive duties. He doesn’t mind camping up front either, but when both left back and left winger are slow on pace, there’s not much can do.
And Evra’s forward play isn’t that good either. He fluffs passes and crosses, and is generally wasteful, like Saha.
And yet these two play - not because they are of Manchester United’s standard, and not because they are the best choices for those positions (currently, Larsson fits the role of second striker for United).
No, Evra and Saha play because the system works, however flawed the players might be.
That system will change next year, when United buy a quality finisher, or when Rossi gets a run in the starting 11. It will change when Giggs retires and United start playing a faster winger on the left.
All the hustle n bustle in the world cannot hide a player’s inadequacies, and if a player cannot do what his role asks him to do as well as others can, then he should be replaced.
Saha is an average finisher, Evra is an average defender. THAT is what they bring to the team - average finishing and average defending.
But do you guys see that?
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I have to say I disagree with some of what you say.
I agree that Saha is an average, or even below average finisher. But you seem to underestimate his good qualities, at times he can be exceptional. He has a good touch, a good shot, quick feet, pace, heading ability and a lot of other things.
I have always thought that Ruud was a very under-rated player. His finishing was obviously class, but his close control, ball skills and even his vision was brilliant, for example the pass to Raul for the first goal against Bayern. The major problem, according to me, was that he needed the team to work for him. Our wingers, like Giggsy and Ronaldo and Park, could not cut inside and take defenders on and try to score themselves. They would have to get to the corner flags and whip in the crosses. I think Ronaldo’s improvement this season has a lot to do with the fact that we have changed our system of play. Also, Ruud apparently has a bad attitude, but that may just be rubbish, and isn’t worth commenting on.
About Evra. Defensively, I do worry a lot. It isn’t so much his tackling, because I think he is incredibly difficult to run at, what with all his pace, but the real problem is positioning. For example, The goal scored by Villa, at Old Trafford. I don’t remember the scorer, but I remember that Baros took on Vidic at the touch line, nutmegged him and passed it to the scorer. Evra should have been behind Vidic to help him mop up, but because of his attacking instinct, he was already somewhere near the half line, looking for the pass from Vidic.
And on the attack, I honestly can not think of a better left back in world football right now. There may be one, but I can’t think of one. Our goal against Arsenal at the Emirates was down to Evra. His work rate is astonishing, I don’t know how he doesn’t collapse from exhaustion considering how much he runs in a game. Don’t get me wrong, I love our dear Argentine, and against a team like Chelsea, I would rather have him on the pitch, but right now, Evra is the player I’d pick.
Great problem to have though, and I enjoy your articles Ahmed, cheers.
Thank you for a thoughtful reply and your decision to agree to disagree. I wish there were more footy fans like you
Totally agree with Saha.. You can even see it now.. Saha one on one with Cech to decide the title.. Do you back him?? Cos i wouldn’t..
As for Evra, I’ve been really impressed with his attacking play but as Kramer says defensively he has a LOT to learn.
:o)
I hear what you are saying, and agree with many points. But I have slightly different views on Evra.
What I like about our great manager is that he aint scared to drop a player. If someone’s off form he’ll get dropped and the next man is given the chance. I get absolutely furious when a player keeps his place because he used to play well. I agree that Heinze is a better defender than Evra, but on the same note I think you have to agree that he has not been the same player since his injury. I’m not saying that he won’t get back to his usual standards again, but as a fan, I have felt more comfortable seeing Evra’s name on the team sheet this season when we’ve had crunch matches. And on the same token pleased to see Heinz’s name on the lesser matches.
I actually like Evra, I don’t think he’s the finished article, but I do think he has the makings of a great left back. I like his movement going forward, and if I’m not mistaken I think in his earlier days of proffesional football he was actually a striker! Lets give him a chance, Ronaldo was not exactly hot on his final ball but has shown now that he is the real deal. Give him a chance.
Saha, I like Saha, and I think he is a UTD player, not as our first team striker, but definitely the man to have on the bench. Having two Ruud’s would be great, but I don’t think either would settle for playing second fiddle, so I think Saha is the perfect man to bring on. He holds the ball up well, he allows the rest of the team to catch up, he big and powerful, there are games were you need that kind of player instead of the Ruud type.
I know this will will infuriate a lot of fans, and I would never take away what a great player Ruud was for us. But lets face it, UTD have never had a problem scoring because we do create 15 chances every match. Andy Cole for heavens sake needed 30 chances to score once, we still stock piled our cabinets when he was playing. Yes Rudd scored plenty of goals, but he also had his fair number of misses too. Maybe we don’t have a 20 goal a season striker, but look at the number of goals we have scored this season, and how they are spead around. That’s no coincidence, when u play with a Ruud the team tends to put all forward balls through him, when he’s off colour though goals become dry. Saha spreads the ball around more, giving the rest of the team more chances to score, and we do have loads of players capable of doing that.
Now for the backlash………………!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Our goals have come for two reasons:
Vidic’s presence means that the midfield can push up more and attack instead of always sitting back to protect the goal. Vidic’s form has made a huge difference to our attacking play.
Carrick’s presence in midfield gives us a solid platform to create goals. Fletcher / O’Shea / Smith never gave us the creative spark needed, and while Scholes / Giggs have been more influential Carrick’s presence filled a much-needed spot.
No backlash mate, I just hope we can discuss this without resorting to ‘you dont know anything about football’ type comments.
I completely disagree and i think you’ve lost your mind. I’ll give you that saha isn’t a great finisher as evident by his tendancy to fluff the 1v1’s as proven this season. However, his movement and pace has brought another dimension to our attack this season. It’s opened up the game for the likes of rooney and especially ronaldo.
Ruud, while a great finisher, was very stagnant for Utd in the last year and half he was at Utd. He also had certain tendancies like holding up the ball which slowed down our play and didn’t allow guys like rooney and ronaldo to showcase there ability. Granted, we’d probably be in even a better position right now if we had a true finisher up front but where do you find a player who is a mix of Ruud and Saha?
Heinze is one of my favorite Utd players. I love his desire, passion and toughness. However, he’s not a LB at least not in the english league. He’s a CB playing LB who was the best player at that position last season. The difference now is that Evra while he’s not Heinze in terms of defending, he gets forward better which compensates a bit for the lack of width and pace that Giggsy has lost.
Evra’s defending has vastly improved since his arrival so i don’t think you can slate him for that. Evra has scored for us and has created goals for us, arsenal just recently i you remember, so i’d rather see us getting forward more then sitting back defending.
I don’t see what you are talking about at all!
Firstly, Saha is no different from Andy Cole who also needed many chances to score, yet he is a cult hero at OT. Saha also brings so much to United’s attacking play that is why more of the team scores goals. Plus he does score his fare share of goals. So stop making it seem like it’s a coincidence United now score more with him in the team now Ruud’s departed. Because that is down to Saha’s quality as a forward more than anything else. If that doesn’t prove he is United quality then nothing will. And he leads the line like a true, playing, center forward, for your information, a thing Ruud wasn’t. Calling him a support stiker is silly. Rooney is what a support striker is not Saha.
Besides players with Ruud’s finishing ability are too rare. Ruud was the first United have had of the type since Law.. That alone should tell you United not about to find another Ruud. No wonder Fergie settled for a 35 year old Larson……Who may be able to finish like Ruud but has an all round game like Saha…Ruud types are Ruud types. Hard to find…But United have been better without one. It’s not wrong to admit it which most fans are doing.
Though I agree United do need another finisher, I think it would be better to get a forward with a decent goal scoring record but an all round game like Larson. Because United are definitely stronger with that type of forward
Secondly, to claim Ashley Cole defends better than Evra is just laughable frankly. Cole has been given only defensive duties at Chelsea this season yet he has clearly struggled. Evra is pretty decent at defending undoubtedly yet stupendous going forward. It’s that simple. He proved it in tough matches this season. Remember how he put Lennon in his pocket?
Bridge I agree however is better than both Cole and Evra defensively but that’s beside the point. He is United quality through and throurgh.
Furthermore your complaints over Heinze are misplaced. Heinze doesn’t play anymore simple because 1) He hasn’t really had a good run of full fitness this season and 2) He is far from his best. It has little to do with Evra’s being more pleasing to the eye going forward or the system working.
Heinze is better defensively than probably any of the defenders United have. Yet going forward he is only pretty good but not in Evra’s league. But that is not why he benches. Heinze is simply not Heinze of old yet. Next season he will be. With a good pre-season and full fitness under his belt and then United will have the two best left backs in England fighting for one place. Have no doubt that is what Fergii wanted all along when he signed Evra and he will get it. You should be looking forward to this rather than complaining. Especially when some clueless fans tell you Heinze is not as good as Evra. Because the clearly know don’t know what they are tackling about. In my book he is still better than Evra. But both are top notch and worthy of United first team shirts.
And it won’t matter whether United get Heinze back to his best next year and a better striker to displace Saha to the bench. Or another Ronaldo like winger to replace Giggs on the left. Because United will be the stronger for it. The would still have the top notch qualities of Evra and Saha to call on. Just because better players than them exist out there doesn’t mean they are average.
While I somewhat agree with what you’re saying about Saha, I think its time to get over the whole Ruud thing. He did a job for us and now he’s gone. He no longer fits in the way we play, and imo we’ve always been a better side without a player who scores 30 goals a season. We’re willing to work harder without such a player and Ruud was obviously prone to tantrums.
As for Heinze/Evra, I disagree about that. While Evra isnt a solid defender as Heinze, he’s quickly learning what he needs to do. I disagree with what you say about him going forward, he often wins corners and does a good a job as Gary Neville does on the other flank. He’s set up a good few goals this morning. He’s got plenty of time to improve further as well.
That said I still rate Heinze and its good to see those two battling it out!
Brilliant article… could not agree more.
cos:
Disagree with your statement somewhat:
“What I like about our great manager is that he aint scared to drop a player. If someone’s off form he’ll get dropped and the next man is given the chance. I get absolutely furious when a player keeps his place because he used to play well.”
SAF has favourites. Its been proven over and over through the years. You in his good books, he’ll give you a chance, no matter how bad you are, … and the reverse.
Just look at the extended runs of …Scholes, Giggs, Beckham, Rooney, Fletcher, etc, etc, etc, no matter how “off-form” they were/are. Then there were other players that never really got a real shot or at least the same backing.
Ahmed - after reading your first two paragraphs of this article, the whole flair vs. effectiveness debate, how can you not be a Chelsea fan these past few years? They’re the standard-bearer for ugly effectiveness.
I agree with most of what you said and i dont really despute it, but all im saying in reference to this article and many you have written over the past few months, that for some reason you keep on thinking that Rossi is this brilliant and prolific striker that is mr. consitent. Lets be honest, he has never played more than one game in a row, other than for the reserves, and i think we can all agree that he is too good for the reserves. He scored an incredible number of goals in the reserves but the reserves are call reserves for a reason, they arnt good enough to make even the bench. So with all due respect, lets not bank on the guy too much, for all we know he could give us absolutely nothing come next year. And also the Evra Heinze situation is a bit different in the sense that while Ruud was whining and complaining, Heinze has said he wants to stay and fight, guess that shows great character from the man.
Ahmed,
Well argued. However, I must somewhat disagree.
I don’t want to go to battle between Evra and Heinze. I believe though that they both are brilliant left backs. Perhaps both in top-3 in Premier League. The problem is that they are so different and with United having a possession in most of its games, I think more forward-minded Evra can arguably do better job. If I had to choose one, I would choose Heinze every day though…
But about Saha and Ruud. It is hard to know why Ruud was sold to Real. It wasn’t merely because what happens on field. But I think it has done good for our United. Giggs and Ronaldo on the wings are getting more out of them and Scholes is also pushing up more. So you cannot really compare them together. Ruud is a much better player individually, but for the United team, Saha seems to be better.
In the end it is not a game of individuals but a team.. There are better players around than Saha though - Torres could suit well for United, rather than Villa, for example.
interesting debate unfolding here. Agree with those that prefer evra to heinze this season. The reasons outlined are 1. heinze not fully fit/had a decent run
2. evra got the bit between his teeth and improving rapidly
3. giggsys lack of pace which needs compensating
4. most teams don’t attack us so we need our fullbacks to be good on the ball.
5. once heinze is fully fit, he will push evra and it will be a matter of picking and chosing depending on whether we are playing fulham/charlton/arsenal or whether we need to play blackburn/bolton/chelski - the choice would be obvious in my eyes.
moving on to the striker situation
1. saha is good enough - for the bench
2. ruud was good for goals but not for getting the team to play free flowing attacking football ala arsenal. In all honesty he would have been a predator had he gone to chelski as they like their effective football and thats exactly what ruud is - an effective footballer.
3. we need someone who can better saha at finishing and then we have the perfect footballing striker. I think torres would fit the bill but he would cost in excess of 25m. A cheaper yet as effective option would be ibrahimovic who seems a very good young player with room for improvement.
4. I would rather spend 10-15m on a striker and look to get a giggs replacement in, and looking at recent speculation, bale could fit in giggs shoes quite adequately.
5. Hargreaves is a must, no alternatives please.
All in all, id be happy to spend 12-15m on zlatan, 6-8m on bale, 15 on hargreaves and looking further forward to next summer id want a replacement for neville in terms of miguel from valencia or lahm from bayern.
Gaby has not looked himslef this season but will return and take evras place…
as for the other argument…MUPPETS!!!!!!!!!!!!…
Ruud was an unhappy chappy last season and wanted out
his all round game comes no where near sahas
we are scoring more goals this season primarily coz we are not dependent on ruud
remember 1999 neither cole or yorke wud be considered finishers on ruuds level but together they were unreal..same this year we have saha ronaldo and rooney..
the most important factor of united being top of the league right now is that van is not here…having said that i loved the guy and wish him well but sometimes a move is the best thing for everyone…a teams scoring responsibility at the highest level cannot revolve around one player and it has meant that ferguson is finally seeing the folly in playing 4-5-1..and as for torres yes that would be a great signing but don’t expect any other major signing if we get him..i’d be more inclined to put my money on hargreaves and maybe david souaza
Well, no one has said it so I will…You dont know what you are talking about…
Just kidding…Actually, I dont disagree a lot with what you are saying with regards to the attributes of the players in question. But I think you vastly underestimate the importance of these players, Saha in particular.
Why do you think we have been so dominant in the goal scoring department when Saha has played this year? With his pace and trickery, he forces teams to play much deeper than they would have with Ruud who ONLY lacking was blistering pace..That opens up areas for Scholes, Carrick and Rooney to drop into and stretches teams who also have to contend with the width that our wingers and fullbacks provide…
If we had Drogba or Henry this season, are we invincible? If Saha suddenly did a Drogba, would anyone have slated him. With that said, we still need another striker next season. For all of Saha’s worth, we still need another striker that can really put away those one-on-ones ala Henry.
And on a more serious note, Evra vs Heinze, I’d still choose Heinze over Evra when both are fully fit and on form. What he adds to our defense is invaluable. He add that Terry-type influence to our defense. Before Vidic and RIo started firing, he added steel to our defense and dramatically improve a very weak defense. With him patrolling that left flank, we would not have lost the game to Arsenal and countless other goals. If Giggs still was that flying Welshman, Heinze will be untouchable.
“Saha is an average finisher, Evra is an average defender. THAT is what they bring to the team - average finishing and average defending.”
Hindsight is a wonderful thing eh? Evra is now one of the best left backs in the world and Saha was one of the main reasons for us winning the league that season.
Saha - what? you really need to think what you’re arguing against, and what arguments you’re using. Go home and think. It’ll help