Arsenal vs Manchester United - which club has the best youth policy?
Guardian writer Matt Scott talks about a ‘failure’ of Manchester United’s youth policy. It’s a clever piece and an excellent example of how you can use stats out of context to justify just about any point of view.
Matt’s overenthusiastic efforts apart, I think it’s a good subject to discuss here - which of Arsenal (Wenger) and Manchester United (Ferguson) have a better youth policy, and more importantly, what criteria do we use to judge it?
First, I don’t think transfer spending has any relevance on youth policy - quoting figures for Rio, Saha, Smith, Carrick and Heinze is pointless when it has nothing to do with developing the kids. Similarly, the prices paid for Rooney and Ronaldo don’t factor in - we’re talking about bring young players at an early age and then growing them step-by-step from the reserves into the first team.
If you want to compare Arsenal and Manchester United, you might as well do it on equitable terms and not bring irrelevant facts to prove your case.
How do you judge a club’s youth policy?
On how soon they are fast-tracked into the first team? That criteria ignores the importance second question - were the players brought in because of a lack of alternatives or because they actually play well?
On what trophies they win? At this point I anticipate a flurry of Arsenal responses pointing to last year’s Champions League final. I’d point to Silva, Toure, Henry, Lehmann and Fabregas as the main proponents of that run, and the fact that they got to the final despite playing with kids.
However, it is a significant achievement. My question is - have the Manchester United’s young players been given the same chance? And would Wenger have consciously played so many young players if Campbell and Ashley Cole had been fit and on good form, and if Reyes had not been bitching so much? Just questions and looking at things from a different point of view.
On what awards those players win?
On how many goals they score?
On how pretty their football is? Pretty football is about style, not about results. Are basing our opinion of ‘better youth policy’ based on how nice it is to watch?
Based on their hype?
I’m not a fan of rating players by hype - that works both ways and one day a striker could be god, the next he misses three chances and his form is down the drain.
I’d be interested in hearing what you guys think about how youth policies should be judged.
Arsenal vs Manchester United - Have Your Say
Arsenal’s current crop of young players should be judged in a few years’ time, not now. Similarly, United’s young players (admittedly, the graduates of that policy are not setting the world alight, but that’s a different story), when they start playing more and more next season, should only be judged after a few years. Fergie’s fledglings were judged on the impact they had on the Premiership and on Manchester United in the years to come.
Why praise either side now, when they’ve not won anything?
What do you guys think?
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Discussion - 40 Responses
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Fabregas isn’t a kid despite not turning 20 ’til May 07 and Rosi wasn’t even at the club last season.
I reckon you’ve written better articles. Oh well, there’s always next time.
Rosicky wasn’t even an arsenal player last season. Toure was brought into arsenal’s academy from abroad, but he still came through that academy. The point the Guardian writer was making, is that even the expensive players like Rio couldn’t make man utd’s youngsters look good.
Man Utd have not had any real decent youngsters come through since Ferguson’s famous lot in the early 90’s. Arsenal have had to rely on buying good youngsters because whereas man utd, chelski, spurs & liverpool have bought established stars, for the main part arsenal haven’t been able to compete in the transfer market.
Arsenal’s youth are playing man utd’s youth in the cup shortly over two games, that should give us a good idea about who has the better youngsters coming through. The youth cup is generally regarded as a good marker.
I feel with youth policies you should also look at the qaulity of youngsters that are premiership qaulity but did not quite make the grade at the given club mainly because they got too old too quick while superstars were still playing in the positions they wanted to fill . i.e david bentley , steve sidwell and the list could go on and on .
hi ahmed
i think it’s obvious you don’t like arsenal by the way you talk about them. i think what you say should be taken with a pinch of salt as it’s pretty obvious that arsenal’s youth policy works better than anyone elses.
the evidence being their super team that probably should have won the carling cup last sunday. man united played the exact same policy in this competition and failed to do anything noteworthy.
however, i’m not criticising you for supporting your team - just pointing out that your argument here is plainly biased!
United have the youngsters, Pique, Rossi, Evans, Simpson, Wolf-Eikrem and many others. The sad thing is that Alex doesn’t seem to believe in youngsters that have come through the system as he used to. Pique is being compared to Fernando Hierro in Spain during his time at Zaragoza but is destined to struggle becuase of Vidic/Ferdinand (unless Brown goes)
I just hope Ferguson gets over Richardson, Silvestre, O’Shea and maybe Fletcher as they have all had enough time to prove their worth and yet the likes of David Jones got about one or two games then shipped out. Personally I think Jones couldn’t have played any worse than those above……..
I dont understand Uniteds stand on Rossi. Farming him out for experience again and again can make him frustrated and we all know Parma wants him permanently so what the heck. Richardson? Please. Fletcher? Please. These are the ‘future’ stars according to Fergie but where are they now? Go back to the Baggies Richardson, we dont want you! Fletcher will be better off sold to Keano at Sunderland. Isn’t that where all United failures end up? Oh, one more thing. Bellion sucks and that says much about Fergies youth spotting ability. Ronnie and Rooney are obvious, Rossi too and the rest? Not given a chance to prove themselves and perhaps never will. Probably get sold in another 1 million pound move again.Urgh, Giggs, Gary, SCholes and all are gonna retire and who do we have to replace them? Bardsley? Richardson? Lee Martin? Come on!
One way of gauging the quality of new players coming through is their level of technique, and the ability to apply that technique in a competitive environment. The best test, probably, is to pit them against teams in the top levels of football and see how they fare. If they don’t do well, do they grow (Cesc, Denilson, Ashley Cole, Rooney), or do they shrivel under preassure (Quincy, Lupoli, Song)?
Second, when we are to judge to success of a policy, we must also see how it’s applied. Does the manager have enough confidence in the training provided to the youth wing of the club to play them in the first team? This is relevant because without first team exposure, a player can never develop.
You’re shooting blanks if the aim of your piece is to get Football Manager-esque ratings for youngsters. The only way in my mind to judge youngsters is with the above framework.
On both counts, a) The confidence show in the youth by the club, and b) the level of technique and rate of improvement shown by the youth themselves, Arsenal are miles ahead of United at the moment.
hi ahmed, thanks for your response
here’s the part of my reply that maybe you missed?
“…the evidence being their (arsenals) super team that probably should have won the carling cup last sunday. man united played the exact same policy in this competition and failed to do anything noteworthy…”
Your thoughts?
Ahmed in answer to your question. (What qualifies as good)
If a player is 21 or younger I think we can safely say he is classified as ‘young’. If this player can then establish himself in a premiership first 11 and play on a regular basis I think it is safe to say they are ‘good’. When a player then becomes an integral part of that team rather than bench warming I feel the transition from potential to being a good/top player is made.
In the Utd team at present Rooney and Ronaldo come under that Category. At Arsenal its Fabregas, Clichy, Eboue.
The difference is that Wenger now knows he has at least 6/7 other youngsters who he could throw in to a top level match and they would peform well.. the likes of Diaby, Denilson, Hoyte, Djourou, Traore, Walcott (hesitate to say Senderos!) United or any other team dont have that at the moment. Not even mentioning Bendtner who looks real class)
Wenger has had 10 years to develop youth and there is nobody better (Sadly English players are rarely good enough nowadays and if they are are sold to clubs playing ridiculous fees… Carrick £18m anyone?).
Denilson and Fran Merida will be the next 2 Superstars at Arsenal who will reach Fabregas level within the next 12-18 months.
Hi,
I don’t really care a great deal about Arsenal’s youth development. I am impressed by it but it is important to note that since the departure of key experienced players the Wenger plan comes at a cost - would you be happy being 20 points off the top for the second season running, being 4th and having to play second fiddle to another team from your own city?
United are right to pick the best players available. But don’t look at Richardson and blame the guy. He has to be better than Giggs. Not since George Best has another winger done what the Welsh Wizard has done. The future is there for United. Winning the treble in the reserves was impressive. We also have the very impressive Evans, Gibson and Cathcart as well as Rossi and Pique. Then there are players like Jones, Martin, Brandy, Campbell, Shawcross, Lee etc. But, more importantly, in the meantime, Fergie is 20 points ahead of Wenger and Fergie looks younger than ever!
Arsenal’s Turnover will be the largest in the country over the next 2-5 years… be interesting to see how Wenger does with not only an amazing youth policy but a transfer budget in line with other clubs.
As for Utd… better them to win the league than the blue crooks of west london… see the amount of stuff thrown at Fabregas on sunday… money doesn’t buy class.
I’d go with Manchester United. Reason being that most of Arsenal’s so called kids were brought into the club from other clubs i.e Fabregas from Barca and so on.
One thing that we must try to differentiate here is, the difference between buying young players and bringing young players throught the academy. All of Arsenal’s great young players have come through great coaching at other places. Which is why I will always give a lot of credit to Arsenal’s scouting system rather than the academy. If you consider buying young players as a part of the youth policy, I have just two words for you, Rooney and Ronaldo. And the only reason Wenger has ‘faith’ in his young players is that he can’t afford buying many proven players. Look at the Arsenal teams that have won anything and count the number of players that the academy has produced.
My point exactly, Red_Rach
I personally think the Guardian article is a joke. Reason being, Arsenal and Manchester CURRENTLY have DIFFERENT policies…
Arsenal are trying to get a “Young” team together, wheras Man United are trying to get a “English” team together. Both however are aiming at assembling a team to last for the next couple of years. If you understand this, then its obvious to note that Arsenal are taking the “cheaper” option.
It is pretty obvious that Arsenal have a better Youth policy AT CURRENT, but what about the next couple of years? Once Wenger have perfected the combination of a team that he feel can truly carry them for the next couple of years (which he might feel after the summer transfer window with minor tweaks here and there), what will then happen to the next generation of youngsters? I’m pretty sure that they will also find it hard to break into the first team just like it happened at Man United.
That being said, I would imagine that the best way to just the youth policy of the past couple of years (as well as for the next couple of years) would be to “count” how many ex-United or ex-Arsenal youngsters are playing for other clubs.
“It is pretty obvious that Arsenal have a better Youth policy AT CURRENT”
Sorry, I meant to say:
It is pretty obvious that Arsenal have a better Youth TEAM AT CURRENT
you will find ahmed i pointed out that Rosicky wasnt there last season.
however you decided to delete the comment. You are obviously an arse
I dont think you can compare the two.
Arsenal have invested a lot in youth but which teams havent? Its just the youth at arsenal get more of a chance.
Chelsea have been sniffing round the championship paying compensation to clubs like leeds for there best young players.
Man u signed pique the same way as arsenal bought fabregas. Which can compared to the swoops of rossi and lupoli respectively.
If you look how many ex english arsenal youth players there are round you’d be surprised. Upson, Taylor, Sidwell, Cole to name but a few!
And yes, I am an arse, but that’s a different story
I think the blog has become more about calling the writer a moron rather than discussing points of view on footy. Anyway, getting down to the topic, i go for United’s policy over arsenal’s any day. Firstly, United have so many British born players and are really the only club in the premiership trying to nuture local home grown talent. Bardsley, Richardson, Shawcross, Barnes, Lee Martin, Chris Eagles, Foster. All local guys being taught their trade. I dont think arsenal would have given any of these guys a chance, and the are all playing on loan for top teams now. United’s foreign policy is good too. They get the players who they KNOW will be superstars and that shows great scouting, namely Pique, Rossi, Dong. Then the fact that United’s policy has been tested and proven effective over the years. Butt, Beckham, Giggs, Scholes i can go on forever. Arsenal will get one rare gem out of maybe their entire team, you can point to Henry and Fabregas, but come on, how many of them have arsenal found ? To add to this, many of the Arsenal youth just seem to fall through the cracks and disappear while most of the United youth like djemba, Pidgley, Bellion and Chadwick are all there and there about. I dont know i maybe bias but i think the United set up does more for the kids and community than the arsenal. Look at Pennant, Lupoli, Aliadiere and Bently. None of them given a fare run out and either they have already left or will leave soon enough. Its a tough call but i lean towards United. Bring of the “your an idiot”’s !
oh and one more thing, the only reason why Arsenals youth team’s strength is so apparent is because all of them are still at arsenal. More than half of united’s reserves are out on loan and Richardson is the only kid in the current squad. Eg ? Lee Martin, Ben Foster, Phil Bardsley, David Jones, Ryan Shawcross, Chris Eagles etc. I’d take those guys over arsenals unproven, untested team anyday.
A, what are you on? Arsenal have players out on loan too. They have Bendtner, Gilbert, Mannone, Lupoli, Mumba, Reyes and the mexian guy in Spain who’s name I forget. This is not to mention that we recently sold Larsson and Stokes who were also both out on loan as well. Also, how are the new youths unproven and untested? They got to the Carling Cup final and out played a full strength Chelsea side for the first 45 minutes and although probably didn’t deserve to win certainly gave a good enough showing. Re-reading your comments you missed actually be taking the piss, or at least I hope you are.
Ahmed - one point about your article, I think you have to take transfer fee into account because that defines how good the player ability is at the time of buying. Ronaldo and Rooney had a lot of talent, a lot of demand and had already been trained partly by their clubs and were therefore more expensive. Players such as Fabregas, Toure and Denilson cost next to nothing because nobody else had spotted their talent and that ability to spot potential is an important part of a youth policy.
Carlos Vela is the name of the mexican just for posterities sake
Since when was Henry bought as a youth player? How can you deign to point out Djemba Djemba as an example to follow? Bellion was bought from Sunderland at a relatively advanced stage, so did not pass through the academy, and Chadwick is performing averagely in the Championship. Not exactly to be celebrated.
Ironically enough the same tendencies can be seen in Spain, with Man United’s failing system mirroring that of Real Madrid (for Richardson see Raul Bravo…). Both clubs are the largest feeder clubs for the Championship/Segunda Liga, but neither seem to be producing players good enough for the first team (Real seem to have got the point now, but it’s a bit late, they’ve already sold Soldado and De la Red is getting annoyed). Contrariwise, the youth systems of Barcelona (De los Santos, Messi, Xavi, Puyol, not to mention all of the players that keep getting poached) and Arsenal are working very well.
To A ;Djemba-Djemaba?Come on…Are you the pipe of Sir Alex or something?
OK,seriously now.Arsenal are the most busy English team around NON-ENGLISH youngsters.Why?It ’s just money.They buy quick strong young players with 5pounds and try to learn them things they will never learn.For example;Clichy.Quick and strong,half-stupid in attack,average -or less than average- in deffence.BUT,he was way cheaper than Evra(good in attack, average in deffence,quick and strong).It ’s just money that makes Wenger buy those athletes and try to make them football players.If he had the money he would buy his own Evra,Vidic or Carrick and not Clichy,Senderos or Edmilson.
Also,he has no 90s stars in his team or they are not on top-form.No more Ljunberg no more Bergkamp,Campbell or Pires.If he did have Neville or Scholes or Giggs or one of the above on form he would use them.
Fergie can’t play Fletcher when he ’s got Scholes or even when he can buy Carrick.Wenger can’t play Edmilson while Silva is still good for 90 minutes.
Buying foreign athletes and give them the chance to be footballers (Eboue,Clichy,Senderos) is the easiest thing,but no-wise youth policy.Buying Rosicky is a wise move.Not using Richardson or Fletcher whom you gave chances is wise,too.
So,MONEY and not policy;that ’s the difference.Arsenal fans know it and hurt being 20 back and seeing Chelsea ’s back
Ahmed,
a good piece for a while
IMO, there is no question that Ferguson is still better getting young players through. There’s not much argument if you look at both managers career, which has brought more success. Arguably United’s 90s youngsters were the best English team has ever produced. Wenger has brought great success to Arsenal, too, but has always been behind United. And all the championships he has won, the team has been build around experienced players.
At the moment, I think, Arsenal is only investing so much to young players only because they cannot compete in the markets. Wenger is simply making a virtue out of necessity. Will it work? We will see in few years. If it would be me looking to crystal ball, I would say no. Arsenal will struggle to keep on hold with Cesc, and many of the young players will eventually struggle to take the last steps - that is just a fact for young players. Just look at Senderos, I cannot see big future for him in Arsenal. And besides that - they have nobody coming to replace Henry and Lehmann, so they would need to buy the cornerstones for they future team. Will Wenger spend big time? Probably, or he is gonna struggle few more years and face to lose Cesc and Van Persie, who evidently want to win the titles.
And many have said that Ronaldo was a no-brainer. He cost 12.75 million - if everybody knew how good he was (and was going to become), why wasn’t there competition to sing him?
Fergie developed a youth side that won a League and Cup double and went on to win a treble several years latter. Enough said.
Everybody’s on about Ronaldo and Rooney transfers, but are silent over the 17mil Wenger paid for Reyes.
Wrt “Arsenal’s youth policy”, I just wonder how successfull it will be after Real or Barca start to unsettle Cesc?
The only reason youngsters get a chance at Arsenal is because Arsenal doesn’t have much of a choice at the moment. Wait another year or two, then see how many new youngsters will break into the “established” team.
Just as a matter of interest, in my view, I would say the best YOUTH POLICY worldwide is between Barca and Ajax, thereafter Manchester United. I don’t think Arsenal features really…
Reyes wasn’t brought in as a youth. He was brought in to be a first teamer. And he was 21.
BTW, just think about the core of Arsenal’s team at the moment. How young is it actually?
GK Lehmann, 37
DC Toure, 25
DC Gallas, 29
MC Silva 30
MC Cesc 19
FC Henry 29
FC RVP 23
Average age is 27.4.
And even in there RVP doesn’t start every game when he is fit. And if you look potential wingers they have Ljungberg (29), Rosicky (26), Hleb (25), and Baptista (25). Walcott hasn’t really been playing this year (only 560 minutes so far)
So lets face it. They have two very young and promising full backs in Clichy and Hoyte pushing for a place in starting XI. They have Walcott coming sooner or later. And some very nice potential in Denilson and Diaby - both, however, are very untested so far.
So is this really the best young team England has witnessed. Surely nobody can really think that way.
I think Manchester Unoteds youth was fantastic ten years ago and still is but Wenger does the same with Arsenal only he’s a few years behind. Can you imagine how much money Man Utd saved? with the likes of:
Ryan Giggs - best winger in my lifetime!!!!!!
Beckham - PLAYBOY!
Scholesy - FANTASTIC
the Nevilles - we’ll have two brazilian lads to do what they did!!!!
Butt - not amazing but won it all!!!!!!!
its pretty similar now with Arsenal, only what youth team players their have come up through the ranks? who will be their for 10 - 15 years like Giggsy, Neville, Scholes!!!
MKL - Im sure if you take Lehmann out of you’re mmmmmm equation, the average would be a lot lower, mug
NO edmilson Denilson (or even Diaby)
I agree with Karl and A in this debate. I am behind Man United purely because they are doing a favour for English football by fielding English players. I am looking forward to next season to see how many of them brake into the first team. Ones to definatly watch out for would be Dong, Evans, Cathcart and Martin. I would say Foster but he is 23 now so he isnt really classed as ‘young’ anymore. I cant think of one British Arsenal reserve, Im sure there are some but I dont know of any.
UNITED HAVE GOOD YOUNG GUNS,EXCELLENT TALLENT, HIGH QUALITY FROM THE ACADEMY LIKE EVANS, CATHCART, LEE, BARDSLEY AND MORE!GIVE THEM MORE CHANCE TO SHOW THEIR ATTRACTION!WITH THEM RED DEVILS WILL WIN THE YOUNG GUNS SPIRIT ON ALL COMPETITION!
GOOD LUCK BOYS!
To be honest, the arsenal youth team offer and push the boys so much more than Man utd etc. The young guns have so much potential including future stars such as Merida, Simpson, Ogogo and young Hoyte but as it stands, they have not been given a true chance to show their potential. Physical development is still a key focus.
Arsenal already have given the chance to the youth.I think
they are better than Furgie’s youth!LONG LIFE FOR THEM!