Yes your RESERVE team has 80% English players (admirable for an ENGLISH team) but you tell me how many of those boys are going to make it into the first team and aren’t making up the numbers. The reason those promising young players aren’t still at Arsenal is because Wenger wanted to make a quick buck by selling the young English lads he’d exposed to the top-flight.

Wenger wouldn’t have sold Bentley to a title challenger, or another “top” club. You don’t sell good young domestic players to contenders.

Everyone knows Pennant was a fool. You sidestepped my request for evidence of Bentley’s fines and poor work ethic. You were talking about the attitude of the PLAYERS originally, not just Pennant. Do you think Almunia is a better keeper than Wright was (and in the long run, would have been)?

“Then you agree with Wenger’s decision to let them go for first-team football at lower-level clubs that suited them better? Thank you for wasting my time.”

No, I don’t agree. Not with all of them. I agree with the process of blooding players. So does Wenger unless the players happen to be English. If players like Flamini, Almunia and Cygan deserve a place in Arsenal’s squad. Then so do Wright, Bentley and Upson.

Glen Johnson – 23/08/1984

Matheui Flamini – 07/03/1984

Flamini IS older, only just. In the same way Shevchenko is older than Henry. (People are still happy to call Sheva a “pensioner”, claiming he is too old to make it in the premiership)

I said he had a good left foot, I didn’t say he was left footed.

You have to be a balanced player to play in the premiership, and you would have to have a very professional outlook to fill in at left back when you’re a central midfielder.

Flamini was awful at the centre of Midfield, that is glaringly obvious. Judging by your comments in regard to his good attitude to training, it would be safe to say that he COULD end up being a decent player in that position (Lampard was all about hard work and dedication, and has reaped the benefits). Do you think there is NO chance that any of those young players could have made it in the long term? Oh, but of course, after you’ve argued the points so aggressively (throwing in the odd insult) you decide that you were never defending Wenger in the first place. Convenient.

And finally, to answer your (emotionally driven) ultra-defensive questions:

“Show me, with a slightly better attempt at an argument, why English players deserve more of a chance than foreign players”

Why would I want to? I am saying they should all be given the SAME treatment. I feel that Wenger gets rid of the potentially high quality English players and keeps the potentially high quality foreign players (as well as talentless aged journeymen like Almunia and Cygan).

“Also show me how Wenger hasn’t given English players an equal chance.”

Have a look at all my previous comments.

Ps. Looking forward to your input on my next post, I’ll make sure to use more reliable sources next time.

We don’t have “many” young English players left?
Arsenal Reserves: 80% of our Reserves/Youth/Academy players are English. Source: Arsenal.com (I have an Excel sheet that I can email you so you can verify the percentages)

Jermaine Pennant’s First Team Debut (v Boro): November, 1999. Became Arsenal’s youngest ever first teamer.
Jermaine Pennant’s Champions League Debut (v Schalke): October 2001.
Jermaine Pennant’s League Debut (v West Ham): August, 2002.
Full League debut (as I mentioned earlier)(v Soton): May 2003.
Source: http://www.soccernet.com/england/players/pennantjermaine.html

Flamini’s debut was August 15th, 2004, also mentioned earlier.

Flamini’s Career move: Marseille to Arsenal.
Bentley’s Career move: Arsenal to Blackburn.

Please name the big clubs who were queueing for Bentley’s signature. Oh wait, there weren’t any. Surely a player who is so much more talented than Flamini would have tons of suitors.

There was nothing illegal about Flamini’s acquisition. Marseille were just pissed that he didn’t sign a professional contract with him and Arsenal only paid a nominal fee that all clubs pay as per FIFA rules regarding academy trained players. FIFA and the French FA ruled against Marseille and in favour of Arsenal, and on planet Earth, that means what Arsenal did was A-Ok.
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/players/profile?id=40501&cc=4716

Pennant’s colourful history:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/4307863.stm

“Jermaine Pennant, David Bentley, Franny Jeffers, Richard Wright, Steve Sidwell and Matty Upson may not have been good enough to get proper runs in the team and stake their claims.” > Then you agree with Wenger’s decision to let them go for first-team football at lower-level clubs that suited them better? Thank you for wasting my time.

I never indicated any empathy for young English talent in particular or blamed Chelsea for it, my bone to pick is with your sweeping statements about Arsenal and they have the magnitude of a Kansas Prairie Duststorm.

Johnson isn’t younger. Johnson and Flamini are both 22.

Flamini isn’t left-footed either, he’s right-footed.

“A balanced player with a good left foot will happily play at left back if he’s a professional and isn’t getting into the team any other way…”

Wait a minute, now Flamini’s a balanced professional player with a good left-foot (inaccurate on the foot, no matter)…or is he a “terrible” performer? Contradictiontastic. Make up your mind, please.

In the end, you’re still running around in circles, still fudging facts. I didn’t just question your terrible fact-checking, I also said this in my previous comment:

>Show me, with a slightly better attempt at an argument, why >English players deserve more of a chance than foreign >players. Also show me how Wenger hasn’t given English >players an equal chance.

You’ve shown me nothing. You haven’t got a leg to stand on, mate. This is my final comment in this thread, I’ll see you in some other discussion where you’ll hopefully have your thinking cap on and will have hired a fact-checked if you can’t do it yourself.

I wasn’t talking about current loans, I’m talking about past sales and loans hence why I said HAS ruined, not IS ruining. They don’t have *many* young English players left as a result of this. Fact?

Competitive debuts -
Jermaine Pennant: Arsenal Debut – 08/08/2004
Mathieu Flamini: Arsenal Debut – 15/08/2004

I saw the debuts and made an assumption that they were bought in the same transfer window. Flamini was actually bought 5-6 months previously in the Christmas window under illegal conditions which meant they had to pay Marseille £300,000 which delayed his playing career at Arsenal.
So, I was wrong on the signing dates, and you were wrong on the debuts. I’ll take that.

I happen to think Bentley is a much better player than Flamini, and he has played well since joining Blackburn (Hat-trick on his debut). I can understand the young lad getting frustrated sitting on the bench behind less talented players like Flamini.

Are you sure about the fines? Could you post a link to the info or something plz?

Jermaine Pennant, David Bentley, Franny Jeffers, Richard Wright, Steve Sidwell and Matty Upson may not have been good enough to get proper runs in the team and stake their claims.

Do you think Chelsea are worse for having 4 similar examples instead of 7? Especially since 1 is still out on loan, 1 is staking his claim for a place in the first team and the other two have been released to other premiership teams on request? Seriously, that was what the argument was about.

There is a discrepancy in your comparison of Flamini and Glen Johnson. Johnson is younger, and hasn’t played a couple of seasons in the premiership in the centre of midfield. You learn alot more being in the thick of it, and get used to pushing your body and learning to deal with one on one confrontations. (The middle of the park is always the most flooded area, and hence you end up interacting with players from the other team far more.)
A balanced player with a good left foot will happily play at left back if he’s a professional and isn’t getting into the team any other way, where the rest of the team will take into account that he is out of position and needs protection. You get what I’m saying? Glen’s looked over-awed since the transformation of Chelsea really gathered steam. A seasons loan will give him some experience, and I promise you, Glen will be the better full-back by far in a few years and Flamini will be sold to some French outfit.

Now, if running in circles is a reflection of trying to justify my theories, then you’re correct.

The only facts you questioned were the dates of the debuts and the signings, some of which you got wrong and some of which i got wrong.

Either we both have a fact allergy or you should rescind that comment.

Plus, I don’t get where you get this “Championship” loan bit from, most of our promising youth end up at Premiership clubs, not Championship ones, the ones who do leave looked for permanent moves and are very happy with their Arsenal days, again, I urge you to consider Steve Sidwell’s statements. (Also, our current five loanees include one Englishman and four foreign players…hardly a bias against the English crop, yes)

Flamini and Pennant made their debuts in the same month? Oh-kay. Apparently, you’ve also got a warped definition of time. Pennant made his full league debut for Arsenal in May 2003, while Flamini made his debut sub appearance in August 2004, more than a year’s difference (Plus, Pennant had appeared as a substitute on numerous occasions).

Signed in the same transfer window? Pennant was signed in 1998, Flamini was signed in 2004. I want to borrow your timewarping gagdetmachine.

Flamini’s been the kind of no-nonsense run-all-day-for-the-team player that we require on the bench, and he’s a credit to this club no matter what you say, a lot better than people like Bentley and Pennant who thought too highly of themselves apparently.

I still don’t understand why you’re going around in circles though, you KNOW that Bentley and Pennant have had a crap attitude in training (both have been fined not just by Arsenal, but by the England U-21s as well). Why should Wenger reward that just because they’re English? That’s pure BS. Flamini trained three hours more than any other player daily last season (yes, I know) and was rewarded with a first team run. Right now, Justin Hoyte, despite being shite, is being given a runout becuase of his hard work even though Flamini’s a better leftback.

Jermaine Pennant, David Bentley, Franny Jeffers, Richard Wright, Steve Sidwell (who we have a first option on) and Matty Upson all were given steady runs in the side and failed to prove themselves. Not Wenger’s fault so your point still makes no sense.

You seem terribly lost with the Johnson/Flamini comparison, so let me clarify. Both were played as fullbacks, in Europe and in the league, and Flamini’s been much better. Second, I was comparing a French youngster with an English one. Third, you kind of shoot your argument in the foot by saying that Flamini was a makeshit leftback because doesn’t that mean a makeshift Johnny Foreigner was BETTER than an actual rightback from England?

You keep running around in circles without really proving anything, while showing absolute disregard for facts. Show me, with a slightly better attempt at an argument, why English players deserve more of a chance than foreign players. Also show me how Wenger hasn’t given English players an equal chance.

You really need to see a doctor about your fact-allergy.

I said you didn’t know if he was messing around in training. Don’t change the argument. I was comparing him to Flamini, who also performed terribly. Why hasn’t Flamini been shipped out to a Championship side? Now Reyes is leaving, I could see Wenger regretting relinquishing his other potentially quality AMF’er.

—————————

“Flamini’s been at Arsenal for around two years, Bentley and Pennant were here for a lot longer and failed to establish themselves, again, having seen every single match they’ve played, I know what I’m talking about.”

—————————

Pennant made his Arsenal debut in the same month as Flamini, signing in the same transfer window. So don’t pretend you know how long they’ve been playing for ‘your’ team. Bentley was under-valued by Wenger. Flamini was terrible for Arsenal in midfield since he joined, and has been given space and time.

—————————

“Also, Flamini’s a joint record holder of the Champions League defensive record, and a UEFA Cup finalist with Marseille (a campaign where he was their midfield lynchpin for much of the season). I know who I’d pick if I had to choose between Flamini and Glen Fucking Johnson.”

—————————

AGAIN, I never questioned Flamini’s value as a replacement left back. I also don’t care if he played in the UEFA cup final. Roque Junior played in a world cup final for Brazil two seasons after he was having trouble making it into the Leeds squad.
Materazzi won the world cup after struggling to get into the Everton first team.
Lastly, Glen Johnson is a right back. Flamini is a makeshift left back who is only used there because every other left back at your club has been injured for ages.
Yes you got that record in Europe, there have been some terrible players in record breaking sides ^^ check out the evidence above.

Thanks for trying mate.

Oh, and Chelsea were the first club to field an all non-English XI. Thought you knew that. Oh well.

Flamini’s been at Arsenal for around two years, Bentley and Pennant were here for a lot longer and failed to establish themselves, again, having seen every single match they’ve played, I know what I’m talking about.

Your final paragraph is amazing, though. And stays in tune with the kind of posts you’ve come up with as well. “A Man who Publicly Condemns” English footballers would not have pursued Shaun Wright-Phillips or paid the exhorbitant transfer fees for youngsters like Walcott, Pennant and Upson. Our most famous export to the lower divisions, Steve Sidwell, has nothing but good words to stay about Arsenal, and our current young crop is on LOAN to Birmingham.

Also, Flamini’s a joint record holder of the Champions League defensive record, and a UEFA Cup finalist with Marseille (a campaign where he was their midfield lynchpin for much of the season). I know who I’d pick if I had to choose between Flamini and Glen Fucking Johnson.

Wenger made a public statement saying “English players don’t have enough technique.” I am not going to bother arguing the validity of the actual comment.

It is surely not a co-incidence that he was the first manager to field an entire squad of foreigners, and that some young prospects, who turned down offers from other clubs to play for Arsenal weren’t given the berth that other young foreign players have been given. Flamini was very average in midfield and suffers from a lack of pace, yet he’s shown his worth after a few years by finding a new role and playing well in it.

There’s a good chance that some of the English youngsters would now be staking a claim for a place in the starting eleven if they’d been given as many chances as Flamini, but a man who publically condemns a nation’s footballers and then sells off all the good young players to Championship sides should not be spared any sympathy.

Ashley Cole kept his head straight till 2004, and given his commitment and good attitude, Wenger sold Silvinho and van Bronckhorst to make way for him. The two fullbacks mentioned have been playing for current European champions Barca for well over two years now.

It’s not Wenger’s fault that most of the English lads he brings in don’t repay his faith with the right attitude. Wenger is answerable to the fans and the board and will follow a policy that best achieves success. If that means getting rid of irresponsible, high-headed English lads, so be it. They have noone to blame but themselves, especially as kids like Cesc, Gael Clichy and Eboue took their chance and rose to the top.

Theo looks like a sensible lad, and considering the sparks of talent he’s shown everyone, I’m sure he can go right to the top with the right attitude as well.