A letter to West Ham fans
Updated: June 12, 2007
At the end of the Soccerlens.com represents my vision for what football should be about. It’s not about having people around you who share your views – it’s about being able to share opposing views and discuss football intelligently, without arguments and / or extreme prejudice.
In that sense, Mr Rahman’s article didn’t do SL any justice – it is one-sided and overtly aggressive, not the values I’d like to attribute to soccerlens.com.
The reactions to the article, however, do not fall in that vision either.
To me, racist remarks are equal to any other form of verbal abuse – I am as liable to take offense at being called a terrorist on the basis of my name and perceived identity as I am at having my family insulted.
On several occasions some football fans have told me that the verbal abuse (they call it banter) is part and parcel of modern football and that they embrace it and enjoy it. I agree with this to some extent – there are plenty of chants and songs sung by fans in stadiums that are fun and ARE true banter.
But fans often cross the line without knowing it. This happens rarely, but it happens. For me that’s equal to being racist, because at this point a person has been unfairly targeted and been subjected to verbal abuse beyond the limits of banter.
You might disagree with me. That’s fine.
The reason I’m saying all this is because I’ve got plenty of emails and comments asking me to remove the original offensive article as well as it’s second coming. I agree in principle – as I don’t wish to be associated with such values (of being overly biased and extremely aggressive), I should delete the articles and be done with it.
But the debate quickly spun out of control and for me took a different shape – here we had many West Ham fans asking for legal proceedings against being called racists.
Not only does that smack of self-righteous indignation, it’s also a ridiculously unproportionate response.
In hindsight, if the article hadn’t caused such a extreme reaction, I might have deleted it based on a couple of emails.
Then there were some people who said it would all blow over in a couple of days. I’m sure it will, eventually. But the whole situation does bother me, because it tells me that despite the fact that we have many rational, considerate and tolerant people as football fans, we’re unable to react calmly to someone calling as racists.
Everyone who went through the trouble of proving that they aren’t racist – I’m sure they realise that racism is intolerance and a superiority complex gone bad, and that their intolerance towards the author’s views and their self-righteous superiority doesn’t do much for their claims?
We all get angry – it’s what we do afterwards that counts.
I was angry at the response and wanted to pull the article immediately – I held that anger and decided to deal with the whole thing head on. As a result, I’ve learned a lot about myself and about people.
Mr Rahman’s article will be removed – and so will his 2 other articles, as well as the response to his article made by Fifth Column.
This article shall remain as a record, and so will the comments on this article.
If my actions over the past week have offended you, then I hope that you will understand that it was never my intention to hurt anyone.
Hopefully we can all move on and get back to talking about football. Let’s leave the extreme views and reactions – on both sides – behind us.
Thank you for reading.
June 6th, 2007
Update: For the record, I have no knowledge of Mr Rahman publishing a full-article apology – and frankly, I don’t think it’s needed anymore (or that it was needed to begin with – a retraction sufficed). The original article, as well as the two following it, along with all accompanying comments, have been deleted.
Let me start off by saying that I take full responsibility for the events that have transpired since yesterday morning (Tuesday, 5th June 2007) – it was my decision to publish Mr Rahman’s article on Soccerlens.com which resulted in a very strong reaction from the West Ham community on this site and in various forums on the Internet, including Kumb.com.
I do not agree with Mr Rahman’s views as he stated them in his first article on this topic. Yes, there is a minority in every segment of society (including football fans) who openly express racist opinions and even act on them. Slating the whole community for the actions of a select few is tantamount to prejudice and does the exact same thing that one is accusing the other party of.
There have been several issues raised in the last day or so; I’ll address them one by one here, and you are more than welcome to state your opinions in the comments section at the end of this article.
1. The contents of the first article are inaccurate and the tone is racist in nature
I agree with both charges – barring any personal research into the specific incidents mentioned in the first article my opinion is that most fans are merely passionate about their own clubs and do not turn to violence or display prejudiced behavior. As for the second charge, the tone is one of extreme bias and openly uses racist terminology.
It’s not my place to defend the contents of the article – that is Mr Rahman’s prerogative and he has replied to his critics earlier.
2. Printing the article was a mistake
It’s always hard to admit that you’ve made a mistake – and I think I did make a mistake in allowing that article to be published in its current state. In retrospect I should have investigated the matter further and if at that point Mr Rahman had told me what he says in his response piece, then I should have written an article myself covering the matter.
I underestimated the response – in the last 13-14 months of writing about football on Soccerlens, I’ve read a lot of strong-minded, negative and heavily prejudiced opinions printed in comments, on blogs and in forums. This is not meant as a defense – far from it. For me Mr Rahman’s article was similar to those comments and forum posts – after all, what is worse, saying that all West Ham fans are racists and just plain nasty or an Arsenal fan sending leaving comments on a website and sending emails, all of which discuss his hatred for Muslims and the various methods he has dreamed up to kill me?
I’ve learned to control my reactions to such views and as a result I was perhaps not as enraged by Mr Rahman’s comments as West Ham fans were.
I’ve seen a lot of crap go around – this one should have raised concerns and it did, but not enough. For that I accept the responsibility and more importantly the consequences that will follow.
3. the editor should apologise
For what?
The charge leveled against me and Soccerlens is that I allowed an article laden with prejudiced views to appear on my website. There are several people who have threatened me with legal repercussions if I a) do not offer a public apology to West Ham fans and b) do not retract the article.
This may anger you, but the only charge I consider myself guilty of is that of negligence – a failure to vet the article more thoroughly. For that, I consider that I’ve let down members of the Soccerlens community and I’ve let myself down. To imply that I have something to apologise to West Ham fans all over is, for me, an emotional demand for external confirmation that no, West Ham fans are not racist.
So – are all West Ham fans racist? No. Please do not ask me to defend or apologise for something that is clearly written by another person.
And for those people who think this was a publicity stunt – it’s unfortunate that you think that way, but I assure you that it is not. This whole incident has caused a lot of distress (and taken a considerable amount of my time to resolve) and the gains are very small. I’m not here to court publicity, all I’m trying to do is set the record straight.
4. the author should apologise
That’s up to the author to decide. I’ve asked Mr Rahman to state his case and he did so this morning. However, very few people now believe him because they already distrust him based on his initial article.
5. the article should be retracted
There are 3 reasons why I think the article should not be retracted.
One, despite its contents it is still something that we can learn from, as an example of what blind prejudice is and more importantly, how to react to such accusations.
Two, the article is already up in several places, including the Kumb.com forums. Pulling it down from here protects me from further damage but does not solve the basic problem. Deleting it will not solve the problems we face.
Three, I realise that I made a mistake, and I want to make things better – not by hiding and hoping this will blow over but by using this as a springboard to tackle racist behavior in football.
Several West Ham fans have emailed me threatening me with legal repercussions if the article is not removed. To them, and to anyone else who wishes to press charges, I would say that I hope that by reading this article you may change your mind. My intention was not to harm anyone nor was it to cause emotional distress. However, if you still wish to press charges, I cannot stop you from doing that.
6. the author is a liar
Frankly, I don’t think it matters. The problems we are discussing still exist – by branding the author as a liar and deleting this article and summarily sweeping this matter under the rug may result in a victory for West Ham fans who have defended their honor against charges of racism, but it does nothing to help remove racism from football.
I believe that regardless of the veracity of Mr Rahman’s statements, he would like it for racial profiling and racially-motivated attacks to be stopped. This is a problem that DOES exist, and it’s up to us football fans to stop it. You can easily say that it is a social problem and not one regarding football, but that’s sidestepping the issue. Passions run high in football and it can often be a venting area for extreme behavior – that must be stopped.
7. West Ham fans are not racist / West Ham is not a ‘whitey’ club
This has been answered quite well in the response to Mr Rahman’s article.
8. My personal views on the matter
I have been racially abused on this site, in comments and in emails sent my way. I’ve received death threats, and to top it off, I’ve been called a terrorist more times than I can remember. All of this based on my name – not on my skin color (my friends would tell me I’m whiter than most Pakistanis) or my appearance or dressing (more Western than Pakistani) or beliefs (which people know nothing about).
I could, quite easily, resort to personal attacks of my own and contest every such comment. I’ve been called a LOT of names. I personally choose not to retaliate. Why? Because racist comments generally stem from two types of people – assholes who don’t deserve to live and good people who have completely misunderstood the situation / context and are making a mistake.
For the later, they deserve a second chance and I try to engage them in conversation and come to a reasonable compromise. For the former, I choose to ban them from the site until they learn to behave.
If Mr Rahman is being racist, then he is very much in the later category for me (until he proves otherwise). I would like to give him a second chance, and I’d ask you all to hold your anger in check and do the same.
I’m lucky that I do not live in an area where online anger can be translated into real physical violence. I would have let most of the reaction from West Ham fans go if it had not been for the very real possibility that someone could find out where Mr Rahman lived and attack him.
Some readers (ok, many readers) have said that he’s lying – I don’t think that matters. What matters is that my actions – by allowing this article to be published in the first place – may cause real harm. I strongly hope that this situation will not further degrade and that we can come together and put this issue to rest peacefully.
9. Fan reaction
Calling someone racist usually provokes strong emotional reactions. However, the reality is that we are all a little bit prejudiced, whether because of our parents or the society we live in. I found the reaction over the top – because for me, there is so much said online that is completely untrue about individuals that goes unpunished every day that for a large community to vilify Mr Rahman for his comments smacks of double standards.
There’s a lot of self-righteous indignation in the responses to Mr Rahman’s articles – which tends to paint West Ham fans as whiter than white. The problem here is that an extreme action provoked an extreme reaction, and now we have a whole community that is picking out only positive elements from their daily lives.
I’m no one to pass judgment on anyone – but when you go through this whole debate there’s a strong feeling that Mr Rahman is absolutely wrong and that football fans in general and West Ham fans in particular are very tolerant. I don’t think that football fans are that tolerant to begin with, but that’s just me.
Let’s take Mr Rahman out of this equation – the other day there was an article in the Guardian about Graham Poll which can only be politely described as character assassination. Then there was an article in the Sun about Andy Gray, which the target could easily turn around and sue the paper for. Then there’s the over-the-top criticism about Steve McClaren written on countless blogs and forums.
For me, racism is as serious as the lies newspapers print about people every day, but for a multi-ethnic community that has to deal with racism on a daily basis it is a very volatile subject.
If someone had come out and talked about Manchester United fans this way I would have gotten angry as well – I would have swore at the author and gotten quite angry with him.
However, I think that at the end of the day, I would a) not have attacked him physically and b) not take the attack personally – i.e. not consider this as a finger pointing towards me and calling me racist.
The article touched a raw nerve and provoked a reaction I’ve never seen before from football fans. It has been a learning, eye-opening experience and it’s also an opportunity for us to resolve these racial issues in football through discussion.
Abuse – racial or personal – is unacceptable in football. Getting worked up over racist comments but then saying that insulting someone’s mother is acceptable is hypocritical. It’s abuse of a different kind, and just because you’re not coming off as racist does not mean that you’re wrong.
I’d ask everyone who reads this AND is attends football games regularly to notice the level of abuse handed out to opposition fans and players. Maybe you would then take a second to consider how you’d react if it was you personally who were being insulted (the same way many of you took Mr Rahman’s comments personally).
I’d be surprised if a lot of you are ok with being called cunts to your faces – it may be part and parcel of today’s football but that doesn’t mean that it’s acceptable.
10. What’s Next?
Will Mr Rahman write for Soccerlens again? I don’t know actually – I try to look at the content and not at the person, so if what he writes is considered acceptable by me then yes, I’ll publish it.
On the other hand, I can assure you that I have no intention of publishing any articles in the future that contain racist remarks, and I will be more diligent in factually verifying articles. I take Soccerlens very seriously and I do not want to do something that will tarnish its image.
Should I distance myself from Mr Rahman, or rebuke him publicly for what he has written? That would be the easy choice and would win me acceptance – but the hard reality is that I allowed that article to be published in the first place and I cannot in good conscience turn my back on what I did earlier. The best I can do now is to ensure that in future, this does not happen.
To everyone who took the time to read this, thank you for your time. I have turned off comments on all three previous articles – please make your comments here.
Topics: Help Football
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[...] Update: Please read this first [...]
June 6th, 2007 @ 16:09The quality of the articles written at Soccerlens is heading seriously downhill.
Please dont let some fools write.
June 6th, 2007 @ 16:13Full respect to you mate – handled it very well.
June 6th, 2007 @ 16:15“3. the editor should apologise
For what?”
For publishing something deeply offensive to a large group of people you moron.
You’ve realised you shouldn’t have published it, so just apologise. It simple logic.
But, the truth is you don’t really care about that do you? If you did you wouldn’t have re-posted it.
June 6th, 2007 @ 16:20Ahmed, firstly I would like to thank you as a West Ham fan, that you have taken our indignation seriously and are attempting to calm the situation down. What annoys me is that Mr Rahman continues to try and hold the moral high ground, and comes out with pathetic childish comments like ”OK guys, you’ve won”.
June 6th, 2007 @ 16:23Personally I still believe he lied to embellish his point, if he hates West Ham so much, what was he doing in a West Ham store at the Ilford exchange. Another fan called him an infidel, common enough language on the terraces at Upton Park, not! Why would someone accuse him of being an infidel for writing that article on the internet, what has being someone without faith got to do with it?
My concern is that this man seems to be held in high regard within sections of the communtiy, and if he is spouting this sort of bigotry to young children there’s no hope for social harmony in the future.
Hey,
Mr Ahmed Bilal you are welcome to join our support for West Ham, and im sure number 7 Mr E Rahman the same goes to him, tell him to get a season ticket and see West Ham for itself for 1 season!
Thx
June 6th, 2007 @ 16:25Dave,
If I didn’t care, I would not have gone through all those comments and written this article, or discussed the issue over at Kumb.com. I do care, however I think the demands for apologies are misplaced.
You are entitled to your opinion as much as I am entitled to mine. I probably should take offense at being called a moron or the implication that I don’t care (and therefore am a glory hunter / racist myself) but there’s no point to that.
Maroonmachine – I think it would be appropriate to reprint the comment Mr Rahman posted on the other article:
Judging by the reaction that is not sufficient, but whether he chooses to write more on this is up to him.
June 6th, 2007 @ 16:27You can say what you like, you chose to publish that article.
It’s not like it was just slightly biased. It had a slant on it bigger and steeper than the North Face of the Eiger, and was more unpleasant, narrow minded and downright braindead in it’s tone than anything I’ve ever read about West Ham (and there’s been some rubbish written about us recently)
So I only hope your decision to publish what was obviously, from the first line, a pathetically poor piece of journalism (I use the term in it’s loosest sense), will result in this poor site getting the derision and contempt it deserves
One good thing that has come out of the last few months is that it’s become obvious how pathetically poor the standard of sports journalism is in this country, yet due to all the rubbish that has been written, it has been possible to identify those few and far between journo’s who actually write well balanced, factually based pieces
Those few will be the ones I’ll read in the future, whilst ignoring anything from so blatantly poor a source as this
June 6th, 2007 @ 16:29Did Mr Rahman report all these alleged racist incidents to the police? Including the ones he claimed were precipitated by his article? He has a duty to. The police take such incidents extremely seriously. If he has not, there is little than can be done except condemn them. Unfortunately, violent racism exists everywhere in the world, from Barking to Bangladesh, and everywhere in between. When it happens, we should condemn it, and do everything we can to respond to it positively, and in this country, that means reporting it to the police.
June 6th, 2007 @ 16:29GS – I’m a Man United fan but West Ham are one of the clubs I follow very closely and enjoy watching as well. So yes, will be following you guys next season.
June 6th, 2007 @ 16:30Thanks for your reply, which I welcome. However I do think it matters whether or not Mr Rahman lied. Why would you want someone who has lied so heavily writing for a website that carries the motto “Football news you can trust”?
Mr Bahman just seems to come across like a child who lies, and then continues to lie to hide the first lie.
I don’t think you should have published the article, and it would surely be obvious to anyone (as it evidently was to several hundred West Ham fans) that it was not just racist in tone, but also incredibly poorly written.
Very poor editorial skills Mr Bilal.
June 6th, 2007 @ 16:37Good,take offence. You’ve written this article to cover yourself as you know full well where this situation could potentially lead. Libelous or slanderous (forgive me I forget which refer to speach and which refers to print) comments have been made. As editor you have an ethical, as well as moral responsibility for the material you publish.
Had this article been published in a medium that gets more attention it is inconceivable to think that the publishing editor wouldn’t have offered a full and unreserved public apology for any offence caused. As well as most likely sacking the author.
The fact that you repeatedly fail to acknowledge your part if this fiasco clearly illustrates that you do not in fact care. The reposting of the article just confirms it.
June 6th, 2007 @ 16:38Stu – yes, I made a mistake. However, I don’t think that deleting the article and sweeping the matter under the rug is the right response. I was brought up to own up to my mistakes and not hide from the consequences. Yes, this has put soccerlens.com under a lot of pressure and brought us negative press. It’s a price I have to pay.
Having said that, I think that as football fans we have a choice in how we reply to such situations. We can choose to be angry and demand vengeance, or we can react calmly and not let this reflect badly on our behavior.
Richard – I hope he did.
June 6th, 2007 @ 16:39Dear Ahmed,
Congratulations, I think that you have handled a difficult situation with dignity and even-handedness, and this comes from someone who deeply disagrees with the tone and content of both Mr Rahman’s articles.
I think that part of the reason the reaction has been so strong is that West Ham is a club situated in what is now a predominantly asian area and the majority of sane west ham fans have no issue with this. However, the charge of racism is an easy (and emotive) one to throw and a very difficult one to defend against – it is in my opinion also trown around much to easily these days as a “trump” card by those who are losing an argument. I am glad in this case that people have responeded so strongly against these unsubstantiated accusations and that Mr Rahman has been the one that has beenmade to look predjudiced and ill informed.
I think that it is very important that the articles and comments remain published as freedom of speech is far more important than offending sensibilities. Also the comments show the people – the ill informed, the ignorant and the racists on both sides all show their true colours in their own words – for the world to see.
Again, well done and good luck with the future of the site.
Passerby
June 6th, 2007 @ 16:41Thank you for your comments Mr Bilal. I think they are useful, considered and positive.
The only area I would disagree is questioning why we should not take the racist slurs from Mr Rahman personally. Just because that individual is not talking about ME as an individual does not mean that I should not individually take offence. On the contrary, I sometimes receive abuse on West Ham forums for being a Muslim but I think it’s funny and don’t take that personally because I know most of the time people are just trying to get a big reaction. Conversely, when someone is making huge sweeping statements about a large group of people it is much more personally offensive because the presumption behind the comments – that ALL people from X Y Z group are inferior/racist/terrorists etc – is much more envidious… it undermines trust between communities, it says me, AND my family, and my neighbours and anyone that looks like me are inferior/racist/terrorists etc.
I don’t know about you Mr Bilal, but from his Blog I am strongly of the opinion that if you inserted the word “Muslim” or “Bangladeshi” in Mr Rahman’s original article and it came from a white Councillor or journalist where he made sweeping generalisations about criminality and hatred of those of other skin colour, then I think Mr Rahman would be heading a campaign for a that person to make a full public apology/resignation.
I recognise that Mr Rahman has made a one-line “I’m sorry” statement but if he were to recognise in writing that he was wrong to tar ALL West Ham fans as criminals and racists then his apology would come across as being sincere.
He has stated today that he has become a victim of “what I described” [the 'racism' accusations in his original post]. Actually, the response of several hundred written responses on this site and ONE incident of personal verbal abuse demonstrates that he was wrong – that the vast majority of West Ham fans that are neither racists nor criminals.
Once again though – thank you for the way you personally have handled this. I think it was professional and constructive.
June 6th, 2007 @ 16:44The bottom line is do you as an editor condone discriminatory views? Of course you do not, especially if they are highly inflammatory. Therefore, I assume, anybody using the soccerlens website to do so would be BANNED from doing so again. You cannot be appalled by ridiculous generalisatons about people and then allow for it to take place under your guise. You have admitted negligence – which is in fact gross negligence as you couldn’t have read or edited the appalling article at all. Now, are you going to ban Mr Rahman from publishing anymore work online? Surely a respectable website would take action over such a debacle?
June 6th, 2007 @ 16:44Dave – I could be least concerned about the legal repercussions of this article. For starters, I’ve seen enough libel cases to know that such matters go no where. If I wanted to protect myself from a lawsuit I would have removed the article.
Actually, I can’t say if any editor would publish an apology or not. I can say for a fact that if I were to do it again, I would not publish it, but it has been done and we have to deal with it face up and not brush it away.
As this is my site, I reserve the right to say what I want in it. I made a mistake, owned up to it, and so has Mr Rahman. This is not a platform to appease you or anyone else who is so offended that he forgets that just someone calling you a racist does not make you one.
The original article has received enough criticism in the comments to debunk it completely. Pulling it or offering an apology serves no purpose but to save my own ass, and because of that I haven’t done either.
June 6th, 2007 @ 16:45I think you answer most things very well there and I agree strongly with you on many of the points you make. I do not think you can compare it to criticising an individual though. People vent spleen on websites about people they cannot communicate directly with and in a tone they probably wouldn’t use to their face. That will always happen and maybe it is a necessary release for some people. Attacking an entire group of people you don’t know is surely far more offensive?
Newspaper character assasination is often over the top I agree. If I had my dream job of being a football writer though I personally would criticise McClaren a great deal too as would be my right. Good coach and nice man he might be but he has done nothing for the England team in my eyes on Eriksson’s coaching staff or as manager himself. Reasoned argument and clear repetition of the points should suffice though people may grow tired of reading the question ‘Why does he insist on playing Gerrard and Lampard in the same team?’
Finally, I don’t believe Mr Rahman’s article should be deleted either as I don’t believe in such censorship though I do believe that the piece can and will unfortunately be used as ammunition by racists against him, your site and muslims in general. Personally I would like it to be presented to his employers as I think most companies, organisations or councils would not want such a person working for them. Let alone the British government! I can’t believe he holds a position in education. As a teacher here in Japan I know I would lose my position overnight if I was published making racist comments about the fans of FC Tokyo.
June 6th, 2007 @ 16:46FFS gus, stop asking for the article to be taken down – let its own ignorance and the responses speak for themselves. And as for banning the author, what would that achieve, he would only come bck under another name.
Why not hope that Mr Rahman and us have all learned something from this and can move on – all more informed than we were before.
FWIW if the decision were up to me I would look at issuing Mr Rhaman with a yellow card – but if he does it again then ban him. We ALL make mistakes and should all generally be given a chance to redeem ourselves.
June 6th, 2007 @ 16:495th Column – it’s up to Mr Rahman to make the apology.
Peter – I DID read and edit the article, which makes this even worse. This whole situation has troubled me greatly since yesterday and I regret that this has happened.
Chris – I was refering to the threads (comments on the Guardian blogs even) where McClaren has been called many names, so have been other players – stuff that is completely unacceptable.
June 6th, 2007 @ 16:51No Passerby, a lot of us want to know whether Mr Rahman is going to be banned from using the Soccerlens website again. Being of a strong liberal position, freedom of speech is paramount. However! We are now talking about the reputation of Soccerlens and to what degree it is professional and takes the notion of social responsibility seriously. So, I ask the editor again…are you going to ban Mr Rahman from publishing anymore rubbish?
June 6th, 2007 @ 16:52Guys, thank you for your comments and feedback.
Unfortunately I can’t sit here all day and reply to comments, but I will definitely reply to / moderate all comments tonight.
This was a serious matter and deserves to be dealt as such.
June 6th, 2007 @ 16:53I note your comments, particularly those in which you attempt to ward off the threat of legal action, by admitting your mistake.
However, after reading the authors retort, you have AGAIN allowed him to express racist views in his comments regarding an Indian reader:
‘The Indian guy who admitted being part of the contingent that taunted Mido, I’m sure you’re Mother is very proud of you. Go take your BO sweat stained B&Q shirt off, hasn’t anybody told you to change after your shifts over? ‘
This is the same sort of sweeping cartoon, generalisation that he used in the orignal post by inferring all West Ham supporters are tax evading, thieving racists.
It would seem that you have learnt no lesson at all!
If you are unable to do a proper job with regards to judging the legality of an article, it may be best if you step down.
The Commission for Racial Equality should have a lot to say about this.
June 6th, 2007 @ 16:54Peter – I said this in the article – I will not discriminate against someone on the basis of his personal views, whether he holds them and defends them or whether he expresses them in an article (which he has since stated was written as an angry reaction).
If he writes something that is worth publishing, it will be published. If something similar is written, it will NOT be published, whether it is Mr Rahman or anyone else.
Articles submitted here will be moderated a lot more strictly from now on.
June 6th, 2007 @ 16:55Ahmed, you have focused on the racist slurs on West Ham fans, and Mr Rahman’s (very likely lies) regarding 6 attacks in two years – all conveniently meted out by fans wearing West Ham shirts.
However, you haven’t addressed the libellous slanderous allegation that every away match I attend is funded through “swindling, tax dodging and unlawful earnings”.
June 6th, 2007 @ 16:57Apologise…for what?
Well, you are responsible for publishing a piece of bile that is riddled with factual inaccuracies, defamatory statements and racial abuse to a group of people, West Ham fans, who are, at the moment the whipping boy for sports jounos all over the country. We are an easy target and, as such, fair game.
Your appology, as far as it goes, is grudging at best and I sincerely hope that you and Mr Rahman are prosecuted.
If it ain’t right, don’t do it and if it ain’t true, don’t say it.
June 6th, 2007 @ 16:58Peter – How can you say in one breath that you value freedom of speech and in the next that you want someone banned from writing things you disagree with.
You either value freedom of spech enough to let people write things that offend you or you don’t.
“I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it” – Voltaire
June 6th, 2007 @ 16:58I’m of Indian descent and was born in the late sixties and brought up in Newham. I have always followed my local team and although there was lots of racism in the late 70′s and early 80′s that gradually resided. I happily have been watching the hammers since 1987 with my other Asian mates every season since. I have never been subjected to any racism during all this time of watching West Ham. As a local Asian, I find it so infuriating that someone publishes this inaccurate and sensational piece on West Ham. All it showed was his own hatred and irrational thoughts against West Ham, which he tried to back up with outdated facts. Then the follow up article, which tried to explain his own racial experiences…is embarrassing, stoopping this low to justify the reason he sprouted the original poisonous article. You really cannot make this up. Shame on him (writer with chip on shoulder) and Shame on the editor (Who does not read what he publishes). Because it is the likes of you that give Asians a bad name.
June 6th, 2007 @ 16:59Ahmed Bilal wrote:- “Having said that, I think that as football fans we have a choice in how we reply to such situations. We can choose to be angry and demand vengeance, or we can react calmly and not let this reflect badly on our behavior.”
I agree anger will not help matters, although it is understandable given the nature of the lies and slants aimed at our club
As for the 2nd point, I am reacting in a calm way, in that I have made a mental note to move this site to the top of my websites/journo’s to ignore completely list, even overtaking the shockingly bad Tribalfootball.com
To have published that article, whatever you say in defence, shows all I need to know, and to my mind, there is no going back
You have shown the sort of rubbish you are prepared to publish, so whilst I doubt anything else will manage to reach the depths that one stooped to, I have no interest in reading anything published by someone with such low journalistic standards
June 6th, 2007 @ 17:05Mr Bilal,
I think you have handled this very well, however I do still beleive that the orginal article should be removed from the site because it not only gives this site a bad name but somepeople would consider this site encourages these views.
Mr Rahman should not be any any sort of job where he advises people as it is quite clear he is a liar and a racist!
I strongly believe the orginal article from Mr Rahman was intended to anger West Ham fans and it was a vile piece of abuse aimed at insulting West Ham rather than highlighting the problem of racism.
Mr Bilal, I think you should strongly think about banning Mr Rahman from posting on this site, It should also be encouraged to the employers of Mr Rahman to consider terminating his employment… If i had similar view to Mr Rahman I would not be in a job.
Mr Rahman, You should also strongly consider your position and ask yourself if you are fit to give advise to people… in a non racist way you come across as a preacher of hate!
June 6th, 2007 @ 17:06What a cop out. I was not asking you to “discriminate” against Mr Rahman. I was asking you to do the right thing and acknowledge that Mr Rahman has proven himself to be unsuitable to write about such matters publicly. By taking no action at all you condone his views. If you do not condone them then you would have no problem in “letting him go”. I edit a journal and a website and any contributor that tries to publish discriminatory work is deemed unsuitable to contribute. You however think Mr Rahman is still suitable and therefore you cannot disagree with his views. The ONLY thing you sincerely regret is your failure to edit the article. By taking no action over Mr Rahman, you are completely destroying the reputation of your website. This is not an issue of “freedom of speech” on your behalf but an issue of protecting your website’s (and your own) integrity. After all, you have the right and the ability to moderate content.
June 6th, 2007 @ 17:06You say that you’ve made a mistake in allowing this drivel to be published. By proofreading it and allowing it to be published, you clearly share the same views as your “journalist” otherwise it would have been binned. You have shown your hand mate and no apology can compensate.
June 6th, 2007 @ 17:11Passerby – you miss the point totally. As my message above outlines, this is about questioning the integrity of those who run and moderate Soccerlens. This is not about the foundations and functions of Democracy! I do not want opinions to be banned, and I do not want the article taken down. I do however want the editor of Soccerlens to prove not just that he regrets failing to edit the piece, but that he sincerely disagrees with the opinions expressed. The only way to do that is to clearly signal that he will not tolerate such mindless positions taken by contributors, ergo, some internal action is required on his behalf. Merely making the right noises is not good enough if the website wants to protect its reputation.
June 6th, 2007 @ 17:12rahman has the front to describe west ham fans as racist then follows up by making racist remarks about west ham being a “whitey” club…..double standards …you bet…wonder if you would publish an article about a “brownie/blackie” club?….no thought not…
other than that the completely inaccurate article was mostly nonsense and your website will ultimately pay the price
June 6th, 2007 @ 17:20Emdad’s response still doesnt help him or the situation which he provoked. He talks about West Ham “shirt wearing” people allegedly attacking and making racist comments towards him. Take away the shirt and what have you got? People in general who happen to be white. Most of what happened to Emdad seems to be after 7/7, I admit being a British Asian Muslim during the first couple of months straight after it happened it was a time of heightened paranoia and everyone was a bit wide-eyed when a ‘Muslim’ looking person boarded a train or a bus. That prejudice has slowly died down, but to pin that on West Ham fans too is just ridiculous.
Emdad is from the Barking area, what do you expect mate? The place is crawling with BNP, openly racist white people and an MP who uses racial issues to win votes. There are a lot of racist people in East London in general and a few of them may support West Ham, but to tarnish and generalise West Ham supporters as a whole is just wrong, and he still has not apologised for it.
Overall I think to continue this debate is good, however Emdad and others like him must acknowledge the fact that the club is situated in a very multi-cultural area. Most fans on match days will walk past the Halal butchers shop and then go for a doner or curry down Green Street after visiting the pubs – there will be Bollywood music blasting from speakers, Asian people in traditional attire walking at a snails pacce in your way at match days despite all of the things that would seem ‘foreign’ to away supporters draws no racist remarks or attacks to the local community. I have seen West Ham fans hit back in the chants when labelled ‘Upton Parkistan’ etc.. ( I did however find it funny ) and still think we have the best fans in the land.
Most West Ham fans grew up around Upton Park, East Ham, Stratford, Stepney, Bow, Bethnal Green etc. All of these areas are now populated by large groups of ethnic minorities particularly from Asian origins. This is likely to change now with the influx of Eastern Europeans.
There has been a huge change in demographics and there is also resentment from some of the ‘white’ community that had lost its heritage in an area where generations of their family lived and had an emotional connection to. Emdad and anyone else that is quick to jump on the race card needs to understand the social, economic and current political climate of the locality.
West Ham United FC actually promotes community events with the Asian community and has been praised along with Leicester as doing more than other clubs to try and get Asians into top-flight football. It regularly does school events and supports a number of playing areas to develop and nurture youth talent. There is no Arsenal, Liverpool or Manchester United football club doing this in the area because this is not North London, Merseyside, Manchester this is East London and West Ham.
Emdad seems to me a very insecure person and in all honesty an unlikeable character in general regardless of his views. He seems to think he pays more tax and has a right to question others, he seems to think that he is educated better than others and also shows racial prejudices of his own. However, Emdad has opened an interesting debate and has opened the eyes of some who would rather hide many aspects of this issue under the carpet.
I believe that with success more Asians will start supporting (yes the glory hunters will come) with Eggy’s revolution at West Ham well underway.
June 6th, 2007 @ 17:20Ahmed
The Article – Was badly written, racist in tone and factually incorrect.
The Apology – Could not have been any less sincere.
Your Explaination – I accept that you made a mistake and also agree that you don’t need to apologise.
My View – West Ham fans are deserving of balanced, truthful and well written article on the real situation at Upton Park. It is not a hotbed of racism and was never so, if anything it is probably as good an example of racially integrated fans as you will find in the UK or even Europe.
And a final note for the author – thugs wearing West Ham shirts are just that, thugs, the West Ham shirt has no bearing on that. I proudly wear one and I have never beaten, abused or terrified anyone.
June 6th, 2007 @ 17:26I dont know to what extend the discussion has reached, but there’s no need for the editor to apologise, he has simply stated the obvious facts. Good job mr.editor, handled the whole issue quite well…………….
June 6th, 2007 @ 17:28“Peter – I DID read and edit the article, which makes this even worse. This whole situation has troubled me greatly since yesterday and I regret that this has happened.”
Yet you won’t even offer an apology.
June 6th, 2007 @ 17:32Thank you Ahmed for this response.
Most of your points are well made and you have no reason to apologise as far as I’m concerned. Mr Rahman on the other hand should do so although I am not expecting that to happen.
You do say that you would not have taken this personally if the accusations had been aimed at your club and fans. If Mr Rahmans comments had any basis and had done any research rather than simply ranting and spreading lies on a number of issues then I would have taken them with a pinch of salt too. Unfortunately that was not the case which was the reason for the vociferous response from West Ham fans.
June 6th, 2007 @ 17:35And Peter, I believe the Editor has apologised and regrets not editing more carefully.
June 6th, 2007 @ 17:44Once again I am sorry for referring to ALL West Ham fans as criminals and racists. In light of opinion and arguments presented I would agree for the article to be removed. I will also refrain from writing on Soccerlens in the future.
June 6th, 2007 @ 17:44I feel that Mr Rahman’s remarks are racist and he should be forced to say sorry for the remarks he made. I am a WestHam fun am of mixed race i feel his remarks are sick and based on lies and he is foolish to make remarks like this. If this was a white person saying this he would be hanged and all matter of insults thrown at him. I call for Mr Rahman to lose his job over these racist remarks. I am offended but him and the website that allowed him to have his say. I must point out to make a sweeping statement like that on a certain section of the community is racist and i say this to you Mr Rahman you your self are Racist.
June 6th, 2007 @ 17:44I think Mr Rahmans comments are inflammatory and not constructive although he makes a point highlighting the issue of racism however may be making it worse.
It is in my opinion an irresponsible piece of journalism, which surely was a publicity stunt lets hope it doesn’t back fire on him or the community as whole.
Personally I am a West Ham fan up North in Yorkshire. so what his option on that and how I fund my home and away games, what a joke! Certainly anger surely clouded his judgement maybe he should think twice before submitting something!
June 6th, 2007 @ 17:53Ahmed,
Along with a lot of other West Ham fans I was offended by the article which was nothing short of scandalous, but I also believe in freedom of speech, even to an extent greater than the laws in our country allow. Inflammatory and appalling articles such as the one you published are easily debunked and I think we have nothing to fear from this kind of material as long as it is open to scrutiny and the right to reply.
The issue for you is what exactly you want this site to become. As the editor you determine the tone and nature of material you include. What was going through your head when you selected this? I’d never heard of soccerlens before so if you wanted to use the old link bait approach and get some publicity through controversy then you’ve succeeded, but I hope you’ve also learned a salutary lesson about the kind of life of it’s own these stories create. Pulling the story would be an editorial decision to maintain your website as a source of high quality and trustworthy football news which I presume is your goal (as would, of course, not accepting it). You’re still facing your mistake, nothing is swept away. Leaving it as a sort of public confessional about a massive editorial mistake and an exercise in free speech is at odds with the ‘news you can trust’ tagline you’ve adopted. If you’re leaving it in you might do better to include a warning about offensive views contained in some articles.
As for not apologising because the ‘only’ charge you consider yourself guilty of is negligence in your editorial duty, that particular charge would lose you your job if you were being employed by someone else to make these decisions. To not apologise is purely egotistical, and puts the importance of your own feelings ahead of what’s best for your site and best for your other writer’s reputations. Apparently the only soccerlens articles that are subjected to editorial scrutiny are the ones that cause uproar.
I apologise if this seems excessively personal but I think your objectivity and judgement has been badly exposed over this. I’m not advocating censorship, I want to be clear, I have no problem with this material existing because I think it’s so easy to debunk. The issue is for you, and what you want your site to be – is it a platform for ill conceived hate filled diatribes? Does an apology or a removal of the article fit into your stance on this, and the claim to be trustworthy? I guess it’s too late now, you’ve taken your position and you’re going to stick to it, whatever damage it does to your site’s reputation and that of your contributors.
June 6th, 2007 @ 17:57“Once again I am sorry for referring to ALL West Ham fans as criminals and racists. In light of opinion and arguments presented I would agree for the article to be removed. I will also refrain from writing on Soccerlens in the future.”
Well thats jolly decent of you. Perhaps it would be more fitting if your apology was a full article, posted on the front page of this site.
After all that is how you besmirched our good name. Surely its only right?
June 6th, 2007 @ 18:03Sorry to the editor, I referred to an Ahmed at the end of my response to Mr Rahman’s article which seemed to prompt you to close down that particluar thread and provoke this reponse. I just got my names mixed up at the end of a long response – many apologies (I don’t think you’ve anything to apologise for anyway).
The full-on nature of many West Ham fans is partly due to the sheer amount of negative press we as a club have received all year, especially in the last month or two, which in my opinion Mr Rahman has attempted to capitalise on in order to convey his perverse logic. I for one am quite happy that we’re not ‘cuddly old West Ham’ as portrayed in the press in the past. The likes of Dave Whelan and that prat McCabe have made in our opinion libellous remarks about our club however, and there is a certain seige mentality around Upton Park at the moment. Forgive us if, as a set of fans, we’re a little touchy at the moment.
With further reference to Mr Rahman’s experiences in Tower Hamlets and surrounding areas – its a sad indictment of the world we live in that people are still mistreated and judged by the colour of their skin and religious beliefs etc. If he was indeed telling the whole truth about his experiences then I extend my sympathies to him and his family – no-one should have to put up with that. However in doing so I would like to suggest to him that the large majority of West Ham fans would also agree with me in this, and would encourage him to try to see past the thuggish minority and to the bigger picture.
There is no place for racism in football, or society for that matter. Nor is there a place for misguided swastikas and the likes either.
June 6th, 2007 @ 18:04In my opinion, by publishing the original article in its unedited format, Ahmed, you did in fact open yourself (your site) up to serious legal action.
I’m dubious as to whether this latest open letter would save you from such action, but, frankly, as I’m not a great fan of litigation in such matters, and, in the great scheme of things, this site is of little importance, it would be best if Mr. Rahman’s comment and the more rational responses thereto were allowed to speak for themselves without recourse to further action.
June 6th, 2007 @ 18:14Dave
“Once again I am sorry for referring to ALL West Ham fans as criminals and racists. In light of opinion and arguments presented I would agree for the article to be removed. I will also refrain from writing on Soccerlens in the future.â€
Well thats jolly decent of you. Perhaps it would be more fitting if your apology was a full article, posted on the front page of this site.
After all that is how you besmirched our good name. Surely its only right?
Totally agree with that!
June 6th, 2007 @ 18:22To quote an old song:
“OOOH ADE, ADE COKER, OOOH ADE, ADE COKER, OOOH ADE, ADE COKER, CLYDE BEST, JOHN CHARLES RA RA RA
June 6th, 2007 @ 18:23Ahmed,
I was about to quit reading and commenting on what until this morning I thought was up there with the best footy sites on the web. Something you should be proud of and also be congratulated for.
The events of yesterday afternoon and this morning are nothing more than a blip, and to be honest will blow over. This said, I was getting ready to go elsewhere for my footy fix as I find nothing more offensive as a race row disguised as discussion about football, politics or just about anything else.
I’m sure that as editor you want to show opinion from all ends of the spectrum and rightly so. My only complaint is that Soccerlens is heavily biased in terms of discussions dealing with Manchester United but as they’re your team I quite understand. Thanksfully Hugo S. and others are there to publish some decent stuff on my beloved Spurs.
The point I suppose I’m trying to make is that we all fell into a trap – ours was to react strongly against what even the most simple person could see was ill-argued claptrap. Yours was to decide where to draw the line and how to react to a spiralling situation.
I’m really pleased with your comments here, it shows a measured response without giving everything away that you’ve built so far.
No, you shouldn’t apologise for publishing in the first place. As readers we shouldn’t call on you to do so either.
What we should really be doing is asking what the hell McLaren is doing if he’s playing dyer in defence and whether Crouch is the best striker option. This is much more important to the majority of footy fans than some silly race argument and after all footy discussion is what Soccerlens (usually) does best.
June 6th, 2007 @ 18:42Mr Rahman, you must not “keep schtum” if you really believe what you said. That is as much like censorship as removing the original article.
June 6th, 2007 @ 18:48“This said, I was getting ready to go elsewhere for my footy fix as I find nothing more offensive as a race row disguised as discussion about football, politics or just about anything else.”
Started by the author of a discraceful attempt at character assasination.
“The point I suppose I’m trying to make is that we all fell into a trap – ours was to react strongly against what even the most simple person could see was ill-argued claptrap. Yours was to decide where to draw the line and how to react to a spiralling situation.”
Clap trap which was at best offensive, at worst criminal.
“No, you shouldn’t apologise for publishing in the first place. As readers we shouldn’t call on you to do so either.”
Yes he should, and we have every right to.
“What we should really be doing is asking what the hell McLaren is doing if he’s playing dyer in defence and whether Crouch is the best striker option. This is much more important to the majority of footy fans than some silly race argument and after all footy discussion is what Soccerlens (usually) does best.”
Oh yeah, far more important than seeking a response to the ignorant racism parading as journalism posted here yesterday.
June 6th, 2007 @ 18:55I suppose I asked for that (yawns loudly) I’m off to the England thread to talk about footy. You villagers can storm draculas castle with your pitchforks and burning torches.
June 6th, 2007 @ 19:03Ahmed,
Whilst your post is welcome, I am not sure that it goes far enough.
If you substitute the word white west ham fans with moslem men from the indian sub-continent you would end up with an article which would no doubt end up in the mainstream press and provoke (justifiably)angry responses from the moslem community. More to the point – you would never consider posting it.
You cannot try to slide out of your responsibility as site editor / moderator when allowing an article to be aired which is openly racist and anti-semitic in content and tone.
You have stated that you will post another article from Mr Rahman if it meets with your editorial standards. Does this mean that your standards bypass such issues as racism and cultural bigotry? In that case I look forward to the day when you post an article by a member of the Ku Klux Klan expanding on why he has fallen out of love with his local baseball team because of the growing number of black supporters in the crowd – as long as it is well written and “thought provoking”.
Ahmed, racism is colour blind, I have witnessed many acts of racism in London and the only thing that is consistent is its inconsistency. I have heard asian men and women dismissing eastern europeans as “gypsies”, I have heard white people describe asians as pakis, I have heard black people describe their fellow blacks who try to succeed in their chosen profession as “too white”. All of these examples are based on ignorance and stupidity -neither of which apply to Mr Rahman.
Although Mr Rahman does not use the word infidels in his original article to describe West Ham fans,he does use it in his “apology”. It is ironic that Mr Rahman is outraged by the use of the word infidel when used against him when it is so openly used by sections of his own community to describe someone like myself (I believe kaffir is the favourite insult).
I am afraid that making a principled stance on racism and bigotry means going all the way Ahmed – Mr Rahman is a bigot and should not be given the oxygen of publicity.
June 6th, 2007 @ 19:06cant we just cut this out…
we have had enuf of this…lets move on…..
And as Shaw said “Crude classifications and false generalizations are the curse of organized life.â€
And I as a Man Utd fan totally side with West Ham fans when they took a stand against the false generalizations.
Fifth Column’s article was super and a very apt response, but now its time to move on.
England versus Estonia seems to be too mouth watering, whatever the outcome is
June 6th, 2007 @ 19:06“I suppose I asked for that (yawns loudly) I’m off to the England thread to talk about footy. You villagers can storm draculas castle with your pitchforks and burning torches.”
So as well as racists we’re now ignorant peasants as well?
June 6th, 2007 @ 19:08http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory – note the bit about being not literal
If you’ve evr watched a hammer movie the villagers always storm the castle – I was referring to the rampaging angry mob rather than calling anyone anything in particular.
I hope I’m not being vampirist or transylvanianist LOL….
June 6th, 2007 @ 19:17“cant we just cut this out…
we have had enuf of this…lets move on…..
And as Shaw said “Crude classifications and false generalizations are the curse of organized life.â€
And I as a Man Utd fan totally side with West Ham fans when they took a stand against the false generalizations.
Fifth Column’s article was super and a very apt response, but now its time to move on.
England versus Estonia seems to be too mouth watering, whatever the outcome is”
It certainly is not time to move on as both the author of the article and editor of this site have failed miserably so far to offer any meaningful apology for their actions.
A simple paragraph posted in the comments from the author is not sufficient and the editor fails to see that he’s done anything wrong in publishing it.
June 6th, 2007 @ 19:18The original article and subsequent admission regarding the article being written as a reaction highlights the fact Mr Rahman is indeed ignorant and racist.
Anyone could quite easily have written an article stating that every Asian looking person is a Muslim and therefor a terrorist based upon the grounds that a number of terrorist attacks were carried out by Muslims from Asian backgrounds.
This of course as we know is far from the truth and anyone believing this needs to wake up, however no such article making these accusations would have been allowed to be published in any medium.
I believe Mr Rahman’s original article does nothing but incite racial hatred. The reply mentions various attacks against him, although non violent, writing articles like this makes him no better than his attackers. While there are people with opinions like this who spread their hate we will never live in a tolerant society.
June 6th, 2007 @ 19:40Dave wrote – “It certainly is not time to move on as both the author of the article and editor of this site have failed miserably so far to offer any meaningful apology for their actions.
A simple paragraph posted in the comments from the author is not sufficient and the editor fails to see that he’s done anything wrong in publishing it.”
Here, here. The original author has said he will
June 6th, 2007 @ 19:43“refrain” from posting articles for Soccerlens when the editor himself (if opposed to mindless discriminatory views) should have acted on the issue. And the author definitely needs to offer a proper full, frank, and public (i.e., a new article) apology.
Editor, I am impressed with the way that you’ve conducted yourself over this affair, it could have turned out far worse as I believe you know. Your integrity as an editor is in no doubt. However, that is my opinion and I speak for no other.
Soccerlens obviously attracts football fans. Once again, that is FOOTBALL FANS. All football fans take a keen interest in the social landscape that surrounds their clubs. Why? Because these establishments are symbolic, representative institutions that have a positive impact and play an important role on individuals and groups throughout our social environments. Football clubs will always remain at the very heart of a community.
Mr Rahman’s lazy, self-obsessed journalism may have a negative impact on your online readership. Please be more careful in the future.
West Ham United has a very proud history and tradition. It is this legacy that must not be tarnished having worked hard and boldly survived economic and industrial depressions. Families, friends within our social although worldwide infrastructure are simply outraged and appalled as to the very existence of this article and it’s tone.
Hammers are born they are not made. Ensure that your initiative maintains credibility from this fiasco. Never allow this man to write for you again.
Kind Regards
June 6th, 2007 @ 21:01Richard A.Gosnold
Ahmed,I have written and sometimes published over 25 years and believe it was your responsibility to state your position. So I thank, but don’t congratulate, you for doing so.Three quick points:
a) I have got no problem with debate of any kind. What we got in this case was inflammatory diatribe and that is not defensible.There needs to be proper apologies as a minimum.
b) I know internet publishing is more difficult, but now alerted to something plainly unacceptable, the ball is in your court. If the post stays up, I believe you have to be much stronger in expressing your own condemnation.
c)The piece could be used as case study of race hate, albeit not in the way the author intended. Perhaps you could forward it to the CRE as was.
Finally, not that it should matter. My partner is Muslim and has had a complaint of discrimination upheld at work. So, been there, got the T-shirt, feel the casual racism most weeks (including sometimes directed towards me when I am the minority white person). I challenge it whenever I see it, including when it’s lazy writing from a bigot. No disrespect, but this guy has dropped you in the brown stuff and lifting yourself out, not swimming in it, is your only sensible course of action.
June 6th, 2007 @ 21:07How come West Ham fans didn’t react like this to the movie Green Street which shows them as football hooligans and I would guess more people saw than read this article and there was no backlash
June 6th, 2007 @ 21:12Liam -
Errr, because Green Street was fiction (in case you didn’t realise) and did not pretend to be fact. If the BBC had used excerts from the film in a news report about football violence I’m sure you would have seen a reaction.
June 6th, 2007 @ 21:17What legal training did you have before you became an editor?
If your publication libels someone or offends the PCC code, that’s YOUR responsibility.
It’s YOU who would end up in prison for criminal libel and YOU who could be sued for damages for civil libel. (Writer AND Editor AND Publisher). So its YOU as well as the writer who should apologise.
As a West Ham fan I am deeply offended by the article which has done NOTHING to improve relations in this area. Have you even approached the club to get figures on their fan base, information on their Asians into football project — if so, you’ll speak to their Head of press, who happens to be Asian. Learning to type doesn’t make you or your writers journalists.
June 6th, 2007 @ 21:52Dave.
Well what else do you expect in this era.
UEFA generalizes all pool fans as bunch of hooligans and does not retracts its statement.
But here to quote the editor
“Let me start off by saying that I take full responsibility for the events that have transpired since yesterday morning (Tuesday, 5th June 2007) – it was my decision to publish Mr Rahman’s article on Soccerlens.com which resulted in a very strong reaction from the West Ham community on this site”
He is clearly accepting his mistake of publishing the article in the first place.
Though the incident was very unfortunate, but we can move on for now, in the hope of better edited and reviewed articles.
Soccerlens has become real big in the duration of last 1 year and I think the editor has recognized that and in future, we can expect better journalism.
Coming onto the author, the editor has cleared it that he cannot force the author to issue anything, more than what he has already posted.
So if it is out of his hands , he cannot do much about it ,can he.
Now coming onto the demands of banning the author from posting on this site/blog.
If in future the author comes up with better stuff, devoid of prejudice, I think he should get a chance to post it.
June 6th, 2007 @ 22:43All people should get a second chance, its vital , you just cant leave the hope of them getting better, however strong the odds are against them/him.
I think it’s good of the editor to realise his mistake, but things like this do happen from time to time. Full respect to the editor, he needs not apologise for anything apart from negligence, but in reality the author of such propaganda should not write such twaddle in the first place. It’s people like him who make Political correctness far too extreme, and soon people will not be able to express sensible views because authors cannot be trusted.
June 7th, 2007 @ 01:50Ahmed, i dont have a problem with what he wrote, and i think he has a right to speak his mind. Its sad that we live in a society where he would be attacked in front of his family. I respect the fact that you as the creator of the site have the right to publish anything you want, but the part in his response where he says “The Indian guy who admitted being part of the contingent that taunted Mido, I’m sure you’re Mother is very proud of you. Go take your BO sweat stained B&Q shirt off, hasn’t anybody told you to change after your shifts over?” is so fucking racist, its unbelievable. I suppose the point of his article was to shed light on racism but he has generalized the abuse he has seen to a fan base of millions which is unfair and inaccurate. I am an indian, and so pissed off someone could make such comments on a site which is supposed to be for people coming together for the love of the game. As you know, i am a regular reader and love the site, but you got to stop publishing shit like this.
June 7th, 2007 @ 02:54The editor should apologise… For what? A few weeks back a very famous Australian radio & TV personality called Alan Jones in his daily public broadcasting made racist comments about a sector of Australian society who are second generation migrants. Some People were outraged, and in his defence John Howard the current PM of Australia stated that Allan Jones, and I quote- Alan is not a racist, Allan merely reflects views that are very important to some sector of Australian society! Unquote- This shows that comments though may be insensitive and controversial to others are permitted as long as the perpetrator has the backing of some powerful allies.
June 7th, 2007 @ 04:12I applaud you for the stance you have taken here, despite my absolute disgust at the tone and content of both articles. The only thing I simply cannot believe is that you allowed the second article to be published. The comments to “Indian Guy” in the second article are quite simply disgusting no matter the provocation. Surely any decent sub would have the sense to send that back to the author for revision?
In this day and age it is all too easy to get upset and instantly write the wrong thing. Technology has made it too easy to fly off the handle – “acte in haste, repent at leisure” is so much more appropriate when it takes seconds to write a blog and publish.
However, some valid points have been raised. As a West Ham fan who lived and worked in London for 10 years I have seen racism everywhere. Now back in Scotland I could equally take offence on two counts – I’m West Ham and my wife works for B&Q. However, I choose not fly off the handle – in much the same way that my local shop is run by a Pakistani gentleman and takes no offence in the fact everyone refers to it as “the paki shop”. I spent a long evening discussing this with him and he sees it as a compliment to the fact he works long hours and has the goods you need, when you want them. He also said “well the thing is I’m a Paki, just like your a Scot”.
Perhaps if he was Begali he might take offence, but heres the thing – if we could all just calm down just a little and stop taking offence at the small things, the unimportant senesless words with no INTENT (like constantly being called a “sweaty” for 10 years in London… lol) then maybe we could just concentrate on how to solve some of the bigger issues that racism, intolerance and our multi-cultural society bring up.
I think its time we all stopped being so PC (politically correct) and were a bit more HB (human beings).
June 7th, 2007 @ 05:35Commendable Ahmed,
You know I support you lad, but overall unacceptable. What Mr Rahman has done is terrible, and you have a duty to screen it before posting something you know will have a negative response.
Soccer transcends many levels, and one of the beautiful things about it is that you can interact with so many wonderful cultures to support your local club side, right up to your national squad.
I played at a high level in Australia and overseas as a junior. Many of the teams I played for or against came from different cultures, and we learned at a young age to love and repsect one another, whether we were opponents or not. That is the true meaning of football
I hope that we as writers uphold truth, and not instigate hateful comments, regardless or racial creed, colour or for that matter football club. I know that as a responsible parent, I would not want my child growing up around a sporting code that tolerated such views.
Ahmed, your a top bloke, I’m sure this will pass, and you have my full support, it’s a good thing that you are making amends.
June 7th, 2007 @ 07:29I wonder how this is any different from the regular labeling of Spain and Spanish people as racist in English papers, commentaries here, etc, because of the behavior of a minority of people in a segment which itself is a segment of the population….
June 7th, 2007 @ 11:27Dear Soccerlens
June 7th, 2007 @ 13:47It is in my experience (I live in essex)most of the west ham fans are indeed racist.I have even heard of bragging about fighting in Palmero.”we have given the wops a proper battering”It is such a shame that a decent club with good footballing pedigree are supported by such morons.Whilst i agree that every club has its minority of racist idiots it is my opinion that West Ham have a higher % than anyone.
To be honest I was not that upset at being called a racist (as an old-guard West Ham fan), I am not, but as a white, working-class, male I get used to the racism card being played against me. Nor do I think the article should be taken down I am a great believer in freedom of speech and just because I take offence at something does not mean it should be suppressed. I do, however, seriously object to being called a tax-dodgeing criminal with limited intelligence. I have worked all my life, am a qualified nurse practitioner with a degree and have never been in any kind of legal trouble at all despite being a skinhead for many years and proud of it. If I were on the board at the Irons I would take legal action against this site and have as many of the fans as possible do the same then donate the court award for damages to local organisations helping to fight racism and bring a strained community together. As a parting thought I would like to ask Ahmed if an article so racially and hatefully motivated had been submitted by a white member of the community would he have published it? If the answer is yes then I applaud him for his open approach and support of freedom if the answer is no then maybe he should seriously think about apologising and find himself a very, very good lawyer.
June 7th, 2007 @ 14:20Azam wrote
“Dave.
Well what else do you expect in this era.
UEFA generalizes all pool fans as bunch of hooligans and does not retracts its statement.
But here to quote the editor
“Let me start off by saying that I take full responsibility for the events that have transpired since yesterday morning (Tuesday, 5th June 2007) – it was my decision to publish Mr Rahman’s article on Soccerlens.com which resulted in a very strong reaction from the West Ham community on this siteâ€
He is clearly accepting his mistake of publishing the article in the first place.
Though the incident was very unfortunate, but we can move on for now, in the hope of better edited and reviewed articles.
Soccerlens has become real big in the duration of last 1 year and I think the editor has recognized that and in future, we can expect better journalism.
Coming onto the author, the editor has cleared it that he cannot force the author to issue anything, more than what he has already posted.
So if it is out of his hands , he cannot do much about it ,can he.
Now coming onto the demands of banning the author from posting on this site/blog.
If in future the author comes up with better stuff, devoid of prejudice, I think he should get a chance to post it.
All people should get a second chance, its vital , you just cant leave the hope of them getting better, however strong the odds are against them/him.”
Yes it is the editors duty to apologise as he has final say on what is published. By publishing it he condoned it. The lack of a full, frank and public apology from the editor of this site is now a bigger discrace than the original article.
June 7th, 2007 @ 14:23To the editor -
I see youve seen sense in trying to see off the anger over the article.
if you really want to placate people, ban Rahman from soccerlens permananently. If you dont, it will appear that you are condoning racism
June 7th, 2007 @ 14:30Tom wrote
To the editor -
“I see youve seen sense in trying to see off the anger over the article.
if you really want to placate people, ban Rahman from soccerlens permananently. If you dont, it will appear that you are condoning racism”
He won’t though, he’s a coward who refuses to see the consequences of his actions. Thats why he won’t apologise. He quite simply is not a big enough man to do the right thing.
June 7th, 2007 @ 15:04As the Editor of another West Ham fans’ site i would be ashamed to have published such a disgraceful piece of writing.
YOU, the Editor, should be apologising for allowing such a malicious piece of jounalism to be displayed on you’re site.
By not doing so i find you rather arrogant, iggnorant and obnoxious.
June 7th, 2007 @ 15:45West Ham fans -
Move on.
Worse than the article is the healthy dollup of self-righteous indignation.
June 7th, 2007 @ 15:48“West Ham fans -
Move on.
Worse than the article is the healthy dollup of self-righteous indignation.”
How on earth do you reach that conclusion?
The editor and author are both in the wrong, have admitted as much yet will not offer an apology as public as the article that caused this whole situation.
Based on that the only answer I can logically conclude is that Mr Bilal actually agrees with Mr Rahman, but for the sake of publicity has tried, very poorly i might add, to distance himself from said article and, that the pair indeed do hold racist views and don’t think they need to lower themselves to apologise properly to the white racist west ham scum.
June 7th, 2007 @ 16:09Top work, this is an interesting debate and you were right to print the article. I agree entirely (as stated in my reply to his repsonse) that everyone is slightly prejudiced, it’s human nature. What isn’t acceptable is people being abusive to one another. The only concerns lie in the truth about the incidents, and I believe that’s why many of the Hammers that have replied have been overly defensive. We all know that there is still racism in football… hence the “Kick it” campaign, but West Ham have progressed and still strive to progress further, and it’s our duty to play a part. In this case however, I think we’ll agree the guy is an attention-seeking liar… so let’s hope we don’t hear from him again.
Long live all Hammers whatever their colour or creed….
June 7th, 2007 @ 17:14I understand that alot of you are extremely angered and frustrated at the moronic initial article, but comments going to the OTHER extreme of trying to make it look like NO West Ham fan in the world is racist or something to the nature of “ive been a fan for so and so years, ive never seen anything like this ever happen”, is a little silly IMHO.
There are, and sadly always will be, racist d***heads everywhere. At West Ham, at Man Utd, Liverpool, in Spain, England, at the cricket, the rugby, at a bloody school chess tournament, take your pick. Just because you (a West Ham fan) are a good person and the people around are the same, doesnt mean that every SINGLE West Ham fan around is the same.
That argument is making exactly the same mistake as the ignorant boofhead who wrote the article in the first place, which was blanket stereotyping everyone wearing a West Ham shirt. Saying that ‘no way, no West Ham fan could be racist’ is just as silly i feel.
Further to that, anyone thats been subject to racism at some point in their life would know that, as much as you wanna turn around and crack them in the face, or get a sincere apology at the very least, there just comes a point where you just have to forget about it, and move on. I think thats better than sitting here waiting for an apology from whomever you believe you ‘deserve’ it from, because if it hasn’t come yet, its probably not coming at all.
With respect to Mr Bilal, he made a mistake, but so have all of us at some point, right? The embarrasment and regret he must feel at letting down both this site, and its readers is punishment enough i think (for Ahmed i mean, the author is a different matter). He seems genuinely remorseful and will surely be alot more thoughtful about posting articles in the future. Theres no need to call for more blood. We all deserve a second chance.
Lets all just take a deep breath and get back to talking about football. How good’s Beckham eh?
Peace
June 7th, 2007 @ 18:04lets seriously just pretend that none of this happened and talk about some football. thats all i come here for anyway.
June 8th, 2007 @ 01:45Everyone, thank you very much for your comments.
What I found ironic (but in hindsight, it was to be expected) that because I haven’t taken down the article or banned Mr Rahman from writing here, some people have assumed that I share the same views. That can’t be farther from the truth – I am completely opposed to the sentiments and statements produced in the original article. If you’ve been reading this site for more than a week, you’d know that. However, if you’re not a SL regular, that was to be expected.
Another accusation was that people considered this to be ‘just another attack’ on West Ham because they are everyone’s pin cushion at the moment. Please go ahead and read the archives here discussing West Ham stories – I like West Ham and I was rooting for them throughout the season to avoid the drop, and was quite happy that they did.
The key arguments here seem to be a) that I should apologise to West Ham fans and b) that the article be taken down.
While I have left the option of removing the article open (the debate that followed it was valuable enough that I feel that it should be preserved), I’m not going to take a rash decision unless there is a dire need for it (I took the article offline for a few hours when I found out that Mr Rahman’s family might be in danger).
I’ll think about this over the weekend – there are two things that are gnawing at me in this matter: one, the impression that this gives of SL, and two, how to best move forward from this.
Football blogging is a controversial business and I’ve learned in the last year to not take comments personally – because if I had, I would have probably started legal proceedings against several people in the first few months of starting this website based on the simple fact that they repeatedly called me a terrorist, their justification being that they disagreed with my views on a subject and because my name is distinctly Arabic (and I don’t use pseudonyms anywhere – why should I hide?) – nothing to do with the fact that I’m more Western than Eastern in appearance, habits and opinions.
As a Pakistani, I’ve been hearing and reading people call my country and countrymen terrorists based on nothing else but ignorance. Almost every week there is a comment on SL that racially profiles my writing and judges it based on my nationality instead of the arguments themselves. I’ve learned to not take such things personally, because quite honestly, if you spend your energy fighting these things you’ll never get anything else done.
I also consider extreme forms of verbal abuse to be equivalent to racist comments – some people might consider insulting the ref’s parentage (think Graham Poll) or a player’s relationship with the manager (think Fletcher and Ferguson) to be part and parcel of footballing culture, but I don’t. I find such talk as offensive as any racist remarks.
It could be because I’ve been exposed to more racist comments about my country than most people. It could be because I’ve learned to not take things personally that makes my views on this matter different than most peoples’. Once again, I do not condone racist beliefs and comments but I also do not believe that a person’s family and livelihood should be endangered by them, unless these beliefs affect his work.
At the end of the day, I know that the events of this week will fade away and be a blip in a few months time. I also know that the easiest way to avoid this mess would have been to retract the article the moment the response became very serious and publish an unconditional apology.
Once again, I’m considering removing the article, but if I do so I want to do it in such a way that this whole discussion is preserved – sweeping it under the rug and ignoring it won’t solve the real issue: that racist views still exist on all sides and that they need to be weeded out. I also want to use this incident and try to turn it into something positive.
So far though, it seems that either people want to go back to regular football debates or will not settle for anything less than an apology and retraction.
I also seem to have deeply alienated many West Ham fans, several of whom have also emailed me and told me that they will never return here again.
That’s ok – no one’s forcing anyone to do anything here.
I’ll write to Mr Rahman today and over the weekend will draft another letter as well as decide on the fate of the articles in question.
Thank you for your time, and I appreciate everyone who chose to debate this issue instead of just badmouthing the site and walking away.
SL means a lot to me – I spent a large portion of last year on it, it’s a labour of love and I hate to see it being tarnished.
I was thinking this morning about how it would be if 5 years down the road I came back to this discussion – would I want SL to be associated with it? Probably not. However would it be appropriate to simply delete all records or to just clear up the issue enough so that people 5 years down the line understand what actually happened and do not blame the site for inciting racist views?
So there are several things for me to consider. I’ll work on it this weekend. Thanks again.
June 8th, 2007 @ 19:56Firstly i would like to thank Mr Bilal for his email correspondence in reply to my request that the original piece, apology and author be removed from soccerlens in view of his racially incitefull intent. Although the request has not been met with a satisfactory response, i do appreciate that he took the time out to reply and his politeness in doing so.
For me the intent of the article and from the author go way beyond West Ham Utd, as Mr Rahman works with the youth within my Borough (Tower Hamlets).
The article offends a large proportion of the residents of Tower Hamlets, since there are many “White” West Ham fans, (although i know quite a few ethnic West Ham supporters have also taken offense within the Borough) living here.
From reading the article and apology where he uses blatant stereo typical/racist analysis of an Indian members reply i feel it should be seriously questioned that such a man should hold such a position of responsibility in advising youth.
I dread to think how Mr Rahman would treat my son if he went to him wearing his West Ham colours?
Therefore if people really do feel action should be taken against Mr Rahman and his racist opinions then they should contact his employer and voice their disdain. You can do so by visiting the Tower Hamlets website. A simple email will suffice and please keep any action/emails within the boundaries of the law.
Once again Thank you for the response My Bilal and i respect you for taking the time, but allowing the article and author to remain does not do soccerlens any justice.
June 9th, 2007 @ 16:47Bumping this article up – I’ve updated the article above, so please have a look.
June 12th, 2007 @ 14:24